The original article should have been titled "Red Flags of a Malignant Narcissist" instead of "Red Flags of a Psychopath" with all references to psychopath being replaced with malignant narcissist. It still wouldn't be that accurate, as you rightly point out that blaming the other person for one's unrealistic and naive relationship expectations is at the heart of the issue.
I laughed so hard at this article. Thank you, your responses are very well written. My ex is a narc and the honest truth is if I wasn't so full of myself, and if I didn't "NEED" the attention, I wouldnt have lapped it up. I had a lot of inner work ans growing up to do. How shocking lol the world doesn't revolve around me?!?! And Oh My Gosh, other people have feelings too? Not just me?!?! Yeah. I had a lot of growing up to do. I very much lived in a fantasy that someone was going to fix my life for me and that it would be perfect. This thought makes me barrel roll laughing now. More people need that glass of Grow Up cold water. Thank you, this might hurt someone's feelings but it's a truth they need to hear.
I see educated (and not-so-much) people use the diagnoses (and traits of) psychopathology, narcissistic personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder as practically interchangeable, on an almost daily basis in all sorts of media. It is beyond unfortunate. I blame pop psychology just as much as the quick med school lecture and the outdated DSM. Time for a new one.
This analysis and debunking is great. And Elinor is the bomb. But I think I will continue to disagree about culpability and personal responsibility in toxic relationships. I agree that people with actual NPD deserve our cognitive empathy, and have limitations on how they are able to conduct themselves. But the idea that everyone somehow should upon adulthood be entirely immune and resistant to that idealistic manipulative bull@#$t, well, just no. We all have to try and do our best as we mature. But I am the child of a relationship very like this. My father was a not particularly nice person, plus damaged as a survivor of 4 years of concentration camps as a teenager and the Cap Arcona ship sinking. My mother was also a war refugee who lost her beloved father age 3 and thereafter was with her very violent abusive mother as a German prisoner of war. As a sweet and emotional Catholic girl, a three year courtship did nothing to alert her to how my father really was. He switched to abusive in the afternoon of their wedding and continued thereafter. The shock was immense. She powered on but her ability to parent well was, well, let's face it, ruined, and she became abusive herself and that has obviously affected my life terribly. Because of this I have real doubts about people's agency. The idea that she should have somehow seen red flags and resisted the love she so much needed as a broken person, and the abuse later, well, it's ludicrous. These are perfect world scenarios. I cannot help but think that the bad actor in toxic relationships bears far more blame than the acted upon person. It's all very well to say they can and should just not let it happen, or get out when it does, but no. You say your opinion is unpopular but its also the truth. Not truth. It's VERY arguable just how much agency, culpability and responsibility people have in such situations. I don't believe in oversimplifications.
I just recently had a discussion with someone who held that a politician was a "psychopath". I observed that the guy was pretty clearly a malignant narcissist by anyone's standard and I got the reply that that he might be both AND that MN was really a subset of psychopath.
Some people really want to hang on to the word psychopath as a general use all encompassing slur
Apr 27, 2022·edited Apr 27, 2022Liked by Athena Walker
First sentence: Psychopaths aren’t capable of love. But that doesn’t stop them from involving unsuspecting people in false romantic relationships that have devastating consequences.
***
Who person writes something this non sensical?
Did I miss where you identified the author and the source of the public funding he receives for this BS?
Is this from a grant request?
Surely it is NOT a peer reviewed professional article!! Truly awful!!
OMG- I went back for the author: Ms. Birch makes a living writing about this issue, over and over and over. Wow. Her style is omnipresent: She just "knows" why people act. Far more dangerous people than I ever was.
I could in theory imagine someone divulging a little bit, or even making up sensitive information to be divulged to lure their prey into confiding much much more. Just enough to entice, but in the end theratio between vulnerability of the target and vulnerability of the enchanter would be very lopsided, with target giving away much more. But it would have to be phrased so and what you quote really comes across more as a contradiction. Oh well, at least advice on taking it slow and establishing boundaries is actually useful.
As for falling for love bombing, my theory is that if someone was in childhood sheltered and made thought to be the centre of the universe and perfect, sucked up to by scores of people, they really are in for having a very rude awakening. Alternatively, someone who experienced lack of care or has insecure attachment is basically running on deficit of that parental unconditional affection and so that's what they are looking for, like vitamin defficiency seeking to be treated, a catode looking for an anode. Other reasons for tendency to succumb to love-bombing could be at play too. Which is not search for an excuse, rather explanations.
I have a question please. You mention that it is impossible for an individual to be both narcissist and psychopath. I have thought similar. The narcissist internalises and the psychopath externalises. I can’t understand therefore how it is possible to be both at the same time. The term narcissistic psychopath is widely used. Is it possible that the correct description is really NPD with high psychopathic traits? Or ASPD with high narcissistic traits?
That was a brilliant post Athena! Very entertaining and spot on regarding this erroneous amalgamation, made even by so-called ‘experts’ on psychopathy and NPD! Whenever I read or watch videos about these ‘narcopaths,’ the information is shot through with so many contradictions and illogical holes - it’s mind-boggling how people can gobble it up as fact! 😆
The article was good, but I found myself thinking it's too bad psychology takes so many years of study - if you're having to listen and guide so many people, you may as well get paid for it!
The original article should have been titled "Red Flags of a Malignant Narcissist" instead of "Red Flags of a Psychopath" with all references to psychopath being replaced with malignant narcissist. It still wouldn't be that accurate, as you rightly point out that blaming the other person for one's unrealistic and naive relationship expectations is at the heart of the issue.
I laughed so hard at this article. Thank you, your responses are very well written. My ex is a narc and the honest truth is if I wasn't so full of myself, and if I didn't "NEED" the attention, I wouldnt have lapped it up. I had a lot of inner work ans growing up to do. How shocking lol the world doesn't revolve around me?!?! And Oh My Gosh, other people have feelings too? Not just me?!?! Yeah. I had a lot of growing up to do. I very much lived in a fantasy that someone was going to fix my life for me and that it would be perfect. This thought makes me barrel roll laughing now. More people need that glass of Grow Up cold water. Thank you, this might hurt someone's feelings but it's a truth they need to hear.
I see educated (and not-so-much) people use the diagnoses (and traits of) psychopathology, narcissistic personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder as practically interchangeable, on an almost daily basis in all sorts of media. It is beyond unfortunate. I blame pop psychology just as much as the quick med school lecture and the outdated DSM. Time for a new one.
This analysis and debunking is great. And Elinor is the bomb. But I think I will continue to disagree about culpability and personal responsibility in toxic relationships. I agree that people with actual NPD deserve our cognitive empathy, and have limitations on how they are able to conduct themselves. But the idea that everyone somehow should upon adulthood be entirely immune and resistant to that idealistic manipulative bull@#$t, well, just no. We all have to try and do our best as we mature. But I am the child of a relationship very like this. My father was a not particularly nice person, plus damaged as a survivor of 4 years of concentration camps as a teenager and the Cap Arcona ship sinking. My mother was also a war refugee who lost her beloved father age 3 and thereafter was with her very violent abusive mother as a German prisoner of war. As a sweet and emotional Catholic girl, a three year courtship did nothing to alert her to how my father really was. He switched to abusive in the afternoon of their wedding and continued thereafter. The shock was immense. She powered on but her ability to parent well was, well, let's face it, ruined, and she became abusive herself and that has obviously affected my life terribly. Because of this I have real doubts about people's agency. The idea that she should have somehow seen red flags and resisted the love she so much needed as a broken person, and the abuse later, well, it's ludicrous. These are perfect world scenarios. I cannot help but think that the bad actor in toxic relationships bears far more blame than the acted upon person. It's all very well to say they can and should just not let it happen, or get out when it does, but no. You say your opinion is unpopular but its also the truth. Not truth. It's VERY arguable just how much agency, culpability and responsibility people have in such situations. I don't believe in oversimplifications.
Really hilarious. Both the original article and your responses to it.
I just recently had a discussion with someone who held that a politician was a "psychopath". I observed that the guy was pretty clearly a malignant narcissist by anyone's standard and I got the reply that that he might be both AND that MN was really a subset of psychopath.
Some people really want to hang on to the word psychopath as a general use all encompassing slur
First sentence: Psychopaths aren’t capable of love. But that doesn’t stop them from involving unsuspecting people in false romantic relationships that have devastating consequences.
***
Who person writes something this non sensical?
Did I miss where you identified the author and the source of the public funding he receives for this BS?
Is this from a grant request?
Surely it is NOT a peer reviewed professional article!! Truly awful!!
OMG- I went back for the author: Ms. Birch makes a living writing about this issue, over and over and over. Wow. Her style is omnipresent: She just "knows" why people act. Far more dangerous people than I ever was.
I could in theory imagine someone divulging a little bit, or even making up sensitive information to be divulged to lure their prey into confiding much much more. Just enough to entice, but in the end theratio between vulnerability of the target and vulnerability of the enchanter would be very lopsided, with target giving away much more. But it would have to be phrased so and what you quote really comes across more as a contradiction. Oh well, at least advice on taking it slow and establishing boundaries is actually useful.
As for falling for love bombing, my theory is that if someone was in childhood sheltered and made thought to be the centre of the universe and perfect, sucked up to by scores of people, they really are in for having a very rude awakening. Alternatively, someone who experienced lack of care or has insecure attachment is basically running on deficit of that parental unconditional affection and so that's what they are looking for, like vitamin defficiency seeking to be treated, a catode looking for an anode. Other reasons for tendency to succumb to love-bombing could be at play too. Which is not search for an excuse, rather explanations.
Have to say that thought had crossed my mind also. Thank you for the further insight.
Hello,
I have a question please. You mention that it is impossible for an individual to be both narcissist and psychopath. I have thought similar. The narcissist internalises and the psychopath externalises. I can’t understand therefore how it is possible to be both at the same time. The term narcissistic psychopath is widely used. Is it possible that the correct description is really NPD with high psychopathic traits? Or ASPD with high narcissistic traits?
That was a brilliant post Athena! Very entertaining and spot on regarding this erroneous amalgamation, made even by so-called ‘experts’ on psychopathy and NPD! Whenever I read or watch videos about these ‘narcopaths,’ the information is shot through with so many contradictions and illogical holes - it’s mind-boggling how people can gobble it up as fact! 😆
The article was good, but I found myself thinking it's too bad psychology takes so many years of study - if you're having to listen and guide so many people, you may as well get paid for it!