For some reason it was this paragraph that struck me the most:
"That word, psychopath, made him an unrelatable person that was now, apparently, out to cheat her of everything that he could despite nothing, other than that word, had changed."
That sentence alone was enough to illuminate, with cruel clarity, the immense semantic burden the word psychopath carries—and how it has been weaponized against the very people it pretends to describe. It was in that moment that a thought began to grow in me: perhaps what we need, before anything else, is a new word. A word not poisoned by fiction, fear, and moral panic. A word that might allow for neutrality, listening, and dignity. What follows, in good faith, is my small offering in that direction.
A Proposal: “Atremia”
Out of respect for those who live and feel differently—especially for those, like Athena Walker, who have made the brave effort to explain what it truly means to live as a psychopathic person—I would like to offer a neologism: ‘atremia’.
/əˈtriːmiə/
“uh-TREE-mee-uh"
The word psychopath, as it currently circulates through the collective imagination, is so deeply burdened with negative connotations, cinematic distortions, criminalizing diagnoses, and moral prejudice that it may no longer be salvageable. This is not merely a terminological substitution, but a symbolic gesture: an invitation to think from another place.
Atremia (n.)
A neuropsychological disposition characterized by an atypical—or minimally vulnerable—experience of emotions, especially those related to fear, guilt, and affective empathy. Atremia does not imply pathology or deficiency, but rather a different cognitive-affective architecture, one that processes social and moral stimuli with a kind of resonance much less permeated by emotional stress or pain.
From Ancient Greek a- (ἀ-, “without”) + thrēma (θρῆμα, “wound, opening, fissure”).
Literally: “without wound” or “without opening” — suggesting a psychic structure that remains intact, not pierced or exposed by the emotions that usually “open” or “tear” the empathic subject.
“She wasn’t cruel, nor was she indifferent. She was simply atremic. The suffering of others made sense to her, but it didn’t cut through her psychic flesh.”
I propose atremia as an alternative that allows us to speak about this condition with greater neutrality—without dragging along the shadow of centuries of misunderstanding and sensationalism. Above all, it is an act of listening and respect: for those who do not see themselves reflected in the emotional mold of the neurotypical majority, and for those—like Athena—who articulate, with rare precision and elegance, an alternative mode of inhabiting the world. I know such a change is difficult. As long as the entertainment industry keeps selling the myth of the “psychopath” as a serial villain, and as long as parts of psychiatry avoid deep self-reflection, it will be nearly impossible to displace that word. But still, I leave this small seed here, with the hope that—if not this one—perhaps another, fairer word may someday take root in the collective psyche.
I like the idea. I will continue using the term psychopathy in my writing, as it is how I reach those in the professions that might be able to make lasting change. Otherwise, I believe that they will dismiss my writing outright.
Thank you so much for your response, Athena. It makes perfect sense that you continue using psychopathy in your writing — especially when addressing institutional contexts where the term still carries diagnostic and legal weight. Your clarity on this is, as always, instructive. My small hope with 'atremia' was never to erase or replace the term you use, but simply to open a linguistic side-door — a space where those of us outside those institutions and professions (or at the edges of them) might begin to unlearn the emotional weight that has been so tightly bound to the word psychopath. I trust the precision and elegance of your voice to do what it needs to do within the system. And perhaps, in parallel, terms like atremia might serve as quiet seeds in the collective psyche — something that may grow more visible with time, or not. Either way, I’m grateful to you for listening, and even more for the work you do.
It is a shame that one word can have so much power yet be completely misunderstood. Personally I like anaffective as it seems to describe most psychopaths from what I have read.
I think there’s a difference between knowing you are a psychopath then meeting a romantic partner and not telling them, and discovering that you are a psychopath when you are already with a romantic partner.
To me, the first equates to a lie by omission. I would therefore view the relationship as being built on a lie. I would feel conned.
In the scenario where the diagnosis is made during the relationship, that’s very different. There is no lie, there would be no sense of having been conned. The person standing before me with the diagnosis is the same person that stood before me the day before. I would see it as a diagnosis that we would explore together. Yes the lack of emotional empathy would bother me most but I would have context, I would already have evidence that I was valued, I would just have to come to terms with the idea that ‘value’ is the psychopathic experience of love.
I feel for the guy whose wife left him in your article. I see the response of the wife as unfair.
In many ways I view the effort that you make for your SO very romantic Athena. It requires a sustained effort to consider your partner’s needs. People probably focus on the mask but it’s more than that, it’s having to remind yourself daily that he is there and he has needs too. It isn’t just a case of remembering to smile when he gets in from work. It’s only when I try to screen out my emotional empathy that I get part way to understanding what you have to add in on a daily basis. You can partially remove the mask around your SO, you get close to just being you, but the consideration, that has to stay. That effort has to be made consistently.
Given that my view is that an aware psychopath should be upfront when entering in to a romantic relationship, that does pose a significant problem for the psychopath. When do you communicate that information? Very difficult given the enduring stigma thanks to persistent misrepresentation. Therein lies the problem in my view. It isn’t actually the diagnosis itself that causes the greatest issue, it’s the misrepresentation of the diagnosis.
If an aware psychopath goes into a relationship with no bad intent I dont see a problem with not telling your significant other. You would still be the same person but I would assume you would be looked at and second guessed constantly. Also if the relationship fails they would have a big club to use against you if they chose to. I can't see any positive and there is a major down side.
I think it comes down to my valuing honesty more than fearing psychopathy.
To not reveal the diagnosis would be dishonest in my view. I regard honesty as integral to a successful relationship, so for me that approach dooms the relationship to failure from the get go. I would rather work through a psychopathy diagnosis than suspect dishonesty. Very difficult to conceal a psychopathy diagnosis from a SO long term without them suspecting something is being hidden, not psychopathy but something is not quite as it seems.
I also question the motivation of the psychopath here. The psychopath doesn’t bond, so if the diagnosis causes the SO to end the relationship, no problem, move on. Ultimately the psychopath will find the right life partner who accepts the diagnosis and works to both understand it and find a balance where both parties have their needs met.
I guess I imagine that I would rather as a psychopath simply move on than be in a relationship where I have to conceal all of my true self indefinitely. I might be wrong there I don’t know.
I just can’t see how a romantic relationship would ever work long term without honesty and openness. That’s likely because I rank honesty and openness as more important than a psychopathy diagnosis. Part of that might also be that I am more educated than most in terms of psychopathy and when I hear the word psychopath I don’t automatically associate it with serial killer! I accept that sadly, this is not the norm.
You seem to be unfamiliar with the viciousness of a neurotypical ex. It's a nice thought that telling your SO of something like this will work out, but nearly always it will not, and it isn't worth the typhoon of trouble that brings to our lives.
I read James’s book many years ago. I specifically remember him talking about how he would blow off things like family funerals to go do something he preferred. When I was writing my book, Full Frontal Murder Memoir, I contacted him because I wanted his opinion on my father’s murder case. He was incredibly generous with his time and attention - he even called me from Norway (I’m pretty sure - it was ages ago) to discuss the case and he talked to me for an hour on that call. He was familiar with the case, but also did more research just to be of help to me and there was nothing in it for him. He came off as an extremely pleasant, smart, and engaged man. He actually reminded me of my father in that he was unusually upbeat and happy to help someone just because they asked. I’ve heard him refer to himself in a couple of different ways over the years as you mentioned - prosocial psychopath, borderline psychopath, etc. I don’t know where he’s landed with that. In reading your post, it got me wondering about how many neurotypicals require empathy to be tied to deeper experience, given that AI can give you the same level of cognitive empathy. Something I guess we’ll see soon.
I’m so sorry to hear that. He was, at least to me, a good guy. As far as neurotypicals, I believe that a hefty percentage of us are not satisfied by the action or transaction when we want something. For example, if a neurotypical wife asks her husband to be sure to take out the garbage every night after dinner and he doesn’t do it, this will often result in an argument. Then the husband will take the trash out that night and maybe for a couple of nights, but by the weekend, he’s not doing it again. By not doing the simple task that the wife asked for, she will get upset not just because he hasn’t done the task, but also because, and often more importantly, because she equates his lack of doing the task with a lack of appreciation, love, and respect for her. It’s not purely about the task. She wants him to do it without her having to ask, much less hound him, because she wants him to WANT to do the task because it equates to all those things for her. Neurotypicals see transactions and actions as indicators of love. If a spouse does something for them, they get a good feeling from that which would not be present if an advanced AI robot did it for them. However, if some neurotypicals get used to the idea of being “cared for” by AI robots, at some point they will likely prefer them to real humans. I need to think about this more. I’ve been really into thinking about consciousness lately, and we are fast approaching a time where a lot of our needs can be met by non-conscious beings. The only thing they will lack is emotional connection.
It seems to me that whole situation could be sorted with cognitive communication. She wants him to do it for all those reasons, and likely none of those reasons come into play as to why he isn't doing it. They lack understanding of the other's position on the matter. She can complain about him not doing it, and take his lack of doing so as a slight to her and all of her commitment to the relationship, or she can tell him, please do this for me for these reasons. It is important to me, and your lack of doing it tells me that you are not caring about my needs.
Totally agree. Based on reports I have from actual people and some experience, this often doesn’t change the behavior, and because the issue at hand is typically something small, the wife doesn’t leave because, “well, it’s just about (fill in minor task).” But they add up and that’s why they are so toxic to relationships. Men typically have it so easy if they just realized how easy it is to make their partner feel loved. It’s doing these small things daily that demonstrate that they are consciously considering their partner’s life and feelings. If the husband takes the garbage out every night but grumbles about it, the wife is still not happy. Part of the equation is expectations too. If I have an AI robot that smiles and takes the garbage out, I’m happy, and because of how I’m wired, I may come to attach feelings to my relationship with this robot. That’s the stuff I am curious about. How our society is going to change and what we are going to value that is only available from humans.
Yes, an update would be great. Hoping Leanne is having a better year.
It's sometimes miserable that out-of-date, unscientific information/memes -- myths -- shape perceptions so much. We all use multiple sources to inform our worldviews, but some info just does not die and should.
(The accepted info on autism has so much garbage.)
It took me years to understand and accept that some people who knew me for years before disclosure would not update their view of autism or challenge myths. They downgraded their view of me instead, and would not accept my views on the whole subject either. (I think. It's sometimes subtle.)
I don't know a great deal about autism, but what I have seen fairly often is finding people with autism being annoyed at the amount of disinformation about it there is. That tells me it is in the same category as psychopathy when it comes to valuable versus garbage "research".
Yes, definitely. I work in psychology, I am autistic, and the disinformation, which you’ve likely seen, tends to present itself either as “autistic people are unintelligent children who cannot do anything themselves” or “autistic people are superintelligent geniuses who lack empathy and emotion entirely”.
Sounds about right, yes. I have also seen a total unwillingness to actually take the word of autistic people over what is considered "the science". With psychopathy, when they do this, at least the argument can be, well, psychopaths lie so we can't trust them. We don't lie in the way they think that we do, but at least it is somewhat consistent with their argument and definition of psychopathy. I don't see that same excuse in autism, but I certainly see the same behaviors in the "experts".
Perhaps it's because of my own brain wiring, I'm autistic, but I generally value action over intention. I don't much care why someone does something kind, helpful, etc. Unless the intention is to manipulate or harm me in some way and the kind actions are used to do that, I couldn’t care less. I have seen so many people with good intentions harm people, so for me, outcome matters more.
Essentially, I would be glad someone did something nice or considerate for me, even if there was no emotion driving it. The concept of being bothered by the lack of emotions is strange to me.
Also, to me, the mask is not so much a lie, as a survival mechanism, just like my mask as an autistic person is. It's made to make your life easier.
You probably should not tell him or her.Ask yourself,what will you achieve with this?Personally I would probablly end the relationship right there.But having a psychopath as a "friend" is good I think....I guess it all depends on a psychopath and the partner.
The way I see the man’s divorce, it was probably better for him in the end. If he stayed with her, and keep his neurology a secret, he would have had to constantly mask around her for however much longer the marriage lasted.
While I am trying to understand your perspective, I can only really understand it from a safety perspective. Hiding psychopathy from your partner is like hiding being transgender from your partner. While sure there is less ‘drama’ if you hide it, but what happens if it does come out and now your partner knows that you hid it?
From my perspective, everyone is allowed to be as discriminatory as they want to when it comes to dating. If someone says “I don’t want to date psychopaths” then they’re allowed to do that. Same is true if they don’t want to date asians, or conservatives, or atheists, or short people. Even if the reasons for doing so are misguided or bigoted.
I find these type of situations themselves to be an eye opener. The right relationship will help you grow and there will be as many little secrets as possible, if you have to be hiding complete parts of your life story or identity chances are that something is wrong there. I don't want to be in a relationship where I need to repress myself, let alone consider that if they discovered X or Y, my ass would get thrown away on the spot. Every individual's circumnstances are different, but I carry myself in such way that I feel like I have nothing to hide, and if you don't like that, then it's possible that's not the right relationship for me.
Back to psychopathy, I would agree to keep it to yourself. It's a label with a lot of disadventages and will have you single out one way or the other.
I have a cousin who complains that her SO is emotionally cold most of the time, doesn't have that sweet lovey dovey spark in him. I told her what was the outcome when she tried to talk to him and see if the behaviour could be adjusted... she straight out said that she does not want to live with a person who is forcing themselves to give her love - it's not ideal for her at least, and in her view for the other person either and could grow tired.
That seemed a valid complain to me, I guess you could show to a certain degree what you are while mainting yourself safe, and giving both parties the option to see that it's healthy for them.
As a neurotypical, I could not imagine myself fabricating affection of any kind for too long. In fact I rarely fabricate anything altogether, if I don't feel something I won't do it and that's a unspoken message that we are not friends or nothing and that's it - and that's NOT BAD.
For the people I like I can be sweeter than honey, and it comes natural.
I probably need a psychopathic friend, you could get down to business without so much noise lol.
It sounds like your cousin is not matched too well with her SO, and perhaps that is something that she should weigh as to whether or not his lack of affection is a dealbreaker for her, but she should caution herself when it comes to settling on something that means a great deal to her. That is what fosters regret.
One aspect you might be missing: They also may feel OFFENDED that you would tell them you’re a psychopath. If they found out on their own and secretly knew it might be a completely different story. They still want you to pretend you’re not a psychopath, even if you are. It might not be the fact you’re a psychopath that puts them off, it might be that you have the audacity to admit it.
They might think “you expect me to still be friends with you DESPITE you not caring about me?”. Even if they know secretly without you telling them, at least you give them the respect of not assuming they’ll be okay with it.
Sometimes I watch opinion videos on YouTube or videos of those people who consider themselves predator hunters and whatnot and many times the person talking in the video throws around the phrase "you're a f****** sociopath" or " you're a manipulative psychopath"... And honestly it feels sorta nice to know what psychopathy really is and laugh at those comments internally. The myths and stigma are still constantly reinforced and I can't help but wonder when people will finally realize that most of the things (if not everything) they know about psychopathy are misconceptions and downright wrong!
Athena, I know in the past you mentioned that you have no need of affection, nor do you "miss" people when they are absent. I am curious about why you DO have a SO. Is it for conversation or company? Do you engage in affection even if it is simply for his sake alone? I think you are so fortunate that you found someone who can manage a relationship with you despite your psychopathy. He must be incredibly confident within himself.
My preferred state is one of solitude. If someone comes along and improves on that state, I will do what I need to do to accommodate them and make adjustments to have them in my life. If they leave, I return to my preferred state of solitude.
Yes, he is very confident in himself, and that is one of the things I enjoy about him. I am affectionate to accommodate him, but you are correct, it is something that is unnecessary for me.
I did want to discuss James Fallon with you. You resolved everything I had doubts with. Seems like we can count on him being a true psychopath and not claiming to be one for publicity.
There is another thing. There is a period political Cdrama I am watching now, very trending. The way the male lead manipulates situations to his advantage and uses his silver tongue to charm and coax people is very interesting to watch. Although it feels sometimes that because the script is already written and it is not real life, the male lead will never fail. Of course he can beat unbeatable odds, it is foretold in the script. What I wanted to ask, was that has your life ever looked like that? Manipulating people and situations behind the scenes, charming them left and right. If anyone can make real life look like a , it will be a high functioning psychopath.
It would really depend on the personality of the non psychopathic partner and how familiar they are with the disorder. But if your not that informed and they the non psychopath is not that informed, I think it might lead to a harmful misunderstanding. This information your psychiatrist will hand you will come after a long history of flirting with antisocial (not always illegal, but, getting close) like lying and you fill in the rat that follows from lying. If you really don't care one way or another why burden someone, they have enuf to deal with and don't fix it if it ain't broken. Now I did tell my partner, but he grew up in a small city in Ethiopia until he was 26 and he told me he had seen all kinds of behavior and attiilike mine where he grew up and it reminded him of one of his older brothers who is bad and been in jail before, got kids and tons of exes everywhere, some fights, etc. according to him, the harsher the environment one lives or grows up in, the more common it is too see some of the darker attitudes and traits. I gre up in Canada, but he's like, your like someone rate off the streets, but your parents and family is so nice, what happened no you?.... I'm like, I got no amygdala babe , just the way it all shook out...
Another posible neologism: "Lucidtype". A conceptual counterpoint to "neurotypical"? While neurotypical denotes conformity to the dominant cognitive-emotional patterns of the human majority, lucidtype suggests a mode of being marked by clarity — a lucidity unfiltered by conventional affective or moral overlays. It describes not a deviation or a disorder, but a distinct kind of presence: incisive, perceptive, and often emotionally distanced. It is a term for those who do not feel at home in the collective fog of assumed emotional norms, yet whose detachment offers a different, sometimes unsettling, kind of insight.
Athena, This thread is mostly in the context of SO:
How about a larger social group? Say: Church.
A few times a year I "go to church". I really enjoy the singing. I raise my hands and I dance around a bit. Truly enjoyable. I really like it.
Usually the singing is at the beginning: Rather than leave, I bring a book or newspaper to read for the other parts.
This is also enjoyable: The nice church people who smile and show their warmth aren't nearly as friendly after seeing the newspaper. They dont say anything more, yet make it clear my presence is no longer desired.
There are infinite variations on this: NTs should try a variation to learn to read the reactions beyond words spoken.
I think this is the beef with the SO: It is not so much "a lie", nearly as much as the realization, the NT "didn't know"- can't pick up on it- is so easily fooled, duped, taken in- result overwhelming humiliation.
yes, of course, you are absolutely correct: If I want a warmer reception.
I don't want a warmer reception. (I do want the physical experience of being there during the singing)
My example, above, is apparently awful or my writing bad:
I try to say NTs (or many people) don't realize:
1) they put off a great deal of information without realizing
2) they do not "read" this info that others give them constantly.
In the context of your material: NTs surprized to learn SO is not NT & wears a mask- it MAY be the humiliation that drives the breakup.
Their humiliation they "fell for it"- They lack ability to see beyond the mask.
Likely it is just me: I see low skill people without much interest or curiosity in life.
Imagine the opposite: you find your SO wears a mask!! WOW!! Show me how to do that!! It could be fun and interesting and make everything more rich and meaningful. Frankly, it makes me a bit randy just writing it
For some reason it was this paragraph that struck me the most:
"That word, psychopath, made him an unrelatable person that was now, apparently, out to cheat her of everything that he could despite nothing, other than that word, had changed."
That sentence alone was enough to illuminate, with cruel clarity, the immense semantic burden the word psychopath carries—and how it has been weaponized against the very people it pretends to describe. It was in that moment that a thought began to grow in me: perhaps what we need, before anything else, is a new word. A word not poisoned by fiction, fear, and moral panic. A word that might allow for neutrality, listening, and dignity. What follows, in good faith, is my small offering in that direction.
A Proposal: “Atremia”
Out of respect for those who live and feel differently—especially for those, like Athena Walker, who have made the brave effort to explain what it truly means to live as a psychopathic person—I would like to offer a neologism: ‘atremia’.
/əˈtriːmiə/
“uh-TREE-mee-uh"
The word psychopath, as it currently circulates through the collective imagination, is so deeply burdened with negative connotations, cinematic distortions, criminalizing diagnoses, and moral prejudice that it may no longer be salvageable. This is not merely a terminological substitution, but a symbolic gesture: an invitation to think from another place.
Atremia (n.)
A neuropsychological disposition characterized by an atypical—or minimally vulnerable—experience of emotions, especially those related to fear, guilt, and affective empathy. Atremia does not imply pathology or deficiency, but rather a different cognitive-affective architecture, one that processes social and moral stimuli with a kind of resonance much less permeated by emotional stress or pain.
From Ancient Greek a- (ἀ-, “without”) + thrēma (θρῆμα, “wound, opening, fissure”).
Literally: “without wound” or “without opening” — suggesting a psychic structure that remains intact, not pierced or exposed by the emotions that usually “open” or “tear” the empathic subject.
“She wasn’t cruel, nor was she indifferent. She was simply atremic. The suffering of others made sense to her, but it didn’t cut through her psychic flesh.”
I propose atremia as an alternative that allows us to speak about this condition with greater neutrality—without dragging along the shadow of centuries of misunderstanding and sensationalism. Above all, it is an act of listening and respect: for those who do not see themselves reflected in the emotional mold of the neurotypical majority, and for those—like Athena—who articulate, with rare precision and elegance, an alternative mode of inhabiting the world. I know such a change is difficult. As long as the entertainment industry keeps selling the myth of the “psychopath” as a serial villain, and as long as parts of psychiatry avoid deep self-reflection, it will be nearly impossible to displace that word. But still, I leave this small seed here, with the hope that—if not this one—perhaps another, fairer word may someday take root in the collective psyche.
I like the idea. I will continue using the term psychopathy in my writing, as it is how I reach those in the professions that might be able to make lasting change. Otherwise, I believe that they will dismiss my writing outright.
Thank you so much for your response, Athena. It makes perfect sense that you continue using psychopathy in your writing — especially when addressing institutional contexts where the term still carries diagnostic and legal weight. Your clarity on this is, as always, instructive. My small hope with 'atremia' was never to erase or replace the term you use, but simply to open a linguistic side-door — a space where those of us outside those institutions and professions (or at the edges of them) might begin to unlearn the emotional weight that has been so tightly bound to the word psychopath. I trust the precision and elegance of your voice to do what it needs to do within the system. And perhaps, in parallel, terms like atremia might serve as quiet seeds in the collective psyche — something that may grow more visible with time, or not. Either way, I’m grateful to you for listening, and even more for the work you do.
Thank you, Olmo
It is a shame that one word can have so much power yet be completely misunderstood. Personally I like anaffective as it seems to describe most psychopaths from what I have read.
Indeed, it is fairly reasonable, but again, the same issues applies
I think there’s a difference between knowing you are a psychopath then meeting a romantic partner and not telling them, and discovering that you are a psychopath when you are already with a romantic partner.
To me, the first equates to a lie by omission. I would therefore view the relationship as being built on a lie. I would feel conned.
In the scenario where the diagnosis is made during the relationship, that’s very different. There is no lie, there would be no sense of having been conned. The person standing before me with the diagnosis is the same person that stood before me the day before. I would see it as a diagnosis that we would explore together. Yes the lack of emotional empathy would bother me most but I would have context, I would already have evidence that I was valued, I would just have to come to terms with the idea that ‘value’ is the psychopathic experience of love.
I feel for the guy whose wife left him in your article. I see the response of the wife as unfair.
In many ways I view the effort that you make for your SO very romantic Athena. It requires a sustained effort to consider your partner’s needs. People probably focus on the mask but it’s more than that, it’s having to remind yourself daily that he is there and he has needs too. It isn’t just a case of remembering to smile when he gets in from work. It’s only when I try to screen out my emotional empathy that I get part way to understanding what you have to add in on a daily basis. You can partially remove the mask around your SO, you get close to just being you, but the consideration, that has to stay. That effort has to be made consistently.
Given that my view is that an aware psychopath should be upfront when entering in to a romantic relationship, that does pose a significant problem for the psychopath. When do you communicate that information? Very difficult given the enduring stigma thanks to persistent misrepresentation. Therein lies the problem in my view. It isn’t actually the diagnosis itself that causes the greatest issue, it’s the misrepresentation of the diagnosis.
It does become an issue. I don't have an answer for that issue, so it remains in place for someone smarter than me to solve.
If an aware psychopath goes into a relationship with no bad intent I dont see a problem with not telling your significant other. You would still be the same person but I would assume you would be looked at and second guessed constantly. Also if the relationship fails they would have a big club to use against you if they chose to. I can't see any positive and there is a major down side.
Agreed. It is basically giving someone ammo and hoping that they aren't a vindictive person when they get angry.
I think it comes down to my valuing honesty more than fearing psychopathy.
To not reveal the diagnosis would be dishonest in my view. I regard honesty as integral to a successful relationship, so for me that approach dooms the relationship to failure from the get go. I would rather work through a psychopathy diagnosis than suspect dishonesty. Very difficult to conceal a psychopathy diagnosis from a SO long term without them suspecting something is being hidden, not psychopathy but something is not quite as it seems.
I also question the motivation of the psychopath here. The psychopath doesn’t bond, so if the diagnosis causes the SO to end the relationship, no problem, move on. Ultimately the psychopath will find the right life partner who accepts the diagnosis and works to both understand it and find a balance where both parties have their needs met.
I guess I imagine that I would rather as a psychopath simply move on than be in a relationship where I have to conceal all of my true self indefinitely. I might be wrong there I don’t know.
I just can’t see how a romantic relationship would ever work long term without honesty and openness. That’s likely because I rank honesty and openness as more important than a psychopathy diagnosis. Part of that might also be that I am more educated than most in terms of psychopathy and when I hear the word psychopath I don’t automatically associate it with serial killer! I accept that sadly, this is not the norm.
You seem to be unfamiliar with the viciousness of a neurotypical ex. It's a nice thought that telling your SO of something like this will work out, but nearly always it will not, and it isn't worth the typhoon of trouble that brings to our lives.
Your right there, I haven’t experienced viciousness when a relationship ends.
I read James’s book many years ago. I specifically remember him talking about how he would blow off things like family funerals to go do something he preferred. When I was writing my book, Full Frontal Murder Memoir, I contacted him because I wanted his opinion on my father’s murder case. He was incredibly generous with his time and attention - he even called me from Norway (I’m pretty sure - it was ages ago) to discuss the case and he talked to me for an hour on that call. He was familiar with the case, but also did more research just to be of help to me and there was nothing in it for him. He came off as an extremely pleasant, smart, and engaged man. He actually reminded me of my father in that he was unusually upbeat and happy to help someone just because they asked. I’ve heard him refer to himself in a couple of different ways over the years as you mentioned - prosocial psychopath, borderline psychopath, etc. I don’t know where he’s landed with that. In reading your post, it got me wondering about how many neurotypicals require empathy to be tied to deeper experience, given that AI can give you the same level of cognitive empathy. Something I guess we’ll see soon.
Unfortunately, Fallon passed away in November 2023. I don't know the cause.
Would you please elaborate a bit on neurotypicals requiring empathy to be tied to deeper experience?
I’m so sorry to hear that. He was, at least to me, a good guy. As far as neurotypicals, I believe that a hefty percentage of us are not satisfied by the action or transaction when we want something. For example, if a neurotypical wife asks her husband to be sure to take out the garbage every night after dinner and he doesn’t do it, this will often result in an argument. Then the husband will take the trash out that night and maybe for a couple of nights, but by the weekend, he’s not doing it again. By not doing the simple task that the wife asked for, she will get upset not just because he hasn’t done the task, but also because, and often more importantly, because she equates his lack of doing the task with a lack of appreciation, love, and respect for her. It’s not purely about the task. She wants him to do it without her having to ask, much less hound him, because she wants him to WANT to do the task because it equates to all those things for her. Neurotypicals see transactions and actions as indicators of love. If a spouse does something for them, they get a good feeling from that which would not be present if an advanced AI robot did it for them. However, if some neurotypicals get used to the idea of being “cared for” by AI robots, at some point they will likely prefer them to real humans. I need to think about this more. I’ve been really into thinking about consciousness lately, and we are fast approaching a time where a lot of our needs can be met by non-conscious beings. The only thing they will lack is emotional connection.
It seems to me that whole situation could be sorted with cognitive communication. She wants him to do it for all those reasons, and likely none of those reasons come into play as to why he isn't doing it. They lack understanding of the other's position on the matter. She can complain about him not doing it, and take his lack of doing so as a slight to her and all of her commitment to the relationship, or she can tell him, please do this for me for these reasons. It is important to me, and your lack of doing it tells me that you are not caring about my needs.
If he still doesn't, bye dude.
Totally agree. Based on reports I have from actual people and some experience, this often doesn’t change the behavior, and because the issue at hand is typically something small, the wife doesn’t leave because, “well, it’s just about (fill in minor task).” But they add up and that’s why they are so toxic to relationships. Men typically have it so easy if they just realized how easy it is to make their partner feel loved. It’s doing these small things daily that demonstrate that they are consciously considering their partner’s life and feelings. If the husband takes the garbage out every night but grumbles about it, the wife is still not happy. Part of the equation is expectations too. If I have an AI robot that smiles and takes the garbage out, I’m happy, and because of how I’m wired, I may come to attach feelings to my relationship with this robot. That’s the stuff I am curious about. How our society is going to change and what we are going to value that is only available from humans.
Yes, an update would be great. Hoping Leanne is having a better year.
It's sometimes miserable that out-of-date, unscientific information/memes -- myths -- shape perceptions so much. We all use multiple sources to inform our worldviews, but some info just does not die and should.
(The accepted info on autism has so much garbage.)
It took me years to understand and accept that some people who knew me for years before disclosure would not update their view of autism or challenge myths. They downgraded their view of me instead, and would not accept my views on the whole subject either. (I think. It's sometimes subtle.)
I don't know a great deal about autism, but what I have seen fairly often is finding people with autism being annoyed at the amount of disinformation about it there is. That tells me it is in the same category as psychopathy when it comes to valuable versus garbage "research".
Yes, definitely. I work in psychology, I am autistic, and the disinformation, which you’ve likely seen, tends to present itself either as “autistic people are unintelligent children who cannot do anything themselves” or “autistic people are superintelligent geniuses who lack empathy and emotion entirely”.
Sounds about right, yes. I have also seen a total unwillingness to actually take the word of autistic people over what is considered "the science". With psychopathy, when they do this, at least the argument can be, well, psychopaths lie so we can't trust them. We don't lie in the way they think that we do, but at least it is somewhat consistent with their argument and definition of psychopathy. I don't see that same excuse in autism, but I certainly see the same behaviors in the "experts".
Perhaps it's because of my own brain wiring, I'm autistic, but I generally value action over intention. I don't much care why someone does something kind, helpful, etc. Unless the intention is to manipulate or harm me in some way and the kind actions are used to do that, I couldn’t care less. I have seen so many people with good intentions harm people, so for me, outcome matters more.
Essentially, I would be glad someone did something nice or considerate for me, even if there was no emotion driving it. The concept of being bothered by the lack of emotions is strange to me.
Also, to me, the mask is not so much a lie, as a survival mechanism, just like my mask as an autistic person is. It's made to make your life easier.
I agree, it is exactly that, but many neurotypicals do not understand that argument.
It's unfortunate how so many people are so unwilling to try to understand the perspective of those different from them.
It requires cognitive empathy in order to do so, and neurotypicals do not seem to prioritize that as a necessary skill to learn
Yes, sadly that's true for many neurotypical people.
You probably should not tell him or her.Ask yourself,what will you achieve with this?Personally I would probablly end the relationship right there.But having a psychopath as a "friend" is good I think....I guess it all depends on a psychopath and the partner.
The way I see the man’s divorce, it was probably better for him in the end. If he stayed with her, and keep his neurology a secret, he would have had to constantly mask around her for however much longer the marriage lasted.
While I am trying to understand your perspective, I can only really understand it from a safety perspective. Hiding psychopathy from your partner is like hiding being transgender from your partner. While sure there is less ‘drama’ if you hide it, but what happens if it does come out and now your partner knows that you hid it?
From my perspective, everyone is allowed to be as discriminatory as they want to when it comes to dating. If someone says “I don’t want to date psychopaths” then they’re allowed to do that. Same is true if they don’t want to date asians, or conservatives, or atheists, or short people. Even if the reasons for doing so are misguided or bigoted.
I find these type of situations themselves to be an eye opener. The right relationship will help you grow and there will be as many little secrets as possible, if you have to be hiding complete parts of your life story or identity chances are that something is wrong there. I don't want to be in a relationship where I need to repress myself, let alone consider that if they discovered X or Y, my ass would get thrown away on the spot. Every individual's circumnstances are different, but I carry myself in such way that I feel like I have nothing to hide, and if you don't like that, then it's possible that's not the right relationship for me.
Back to psychopathy, I would agree to keep it to yourself. It's a label with a lot of disadventages and will have you single out one way or the other.
I have a cousin who complains that her SO is emotionally cold most of the time, doesn't have that sweet lovey dovey spark in him. I told her what was the outcome when she tried to talk to him and see if the behaviour could be adjusted... she straight out said that she does not want to live with a person who is forcing themselves to give her love - it's not ideal for her at least, and in her view for the other person either and could grow tired.
That seemed a valid complain to me, I guess you could show to a certain degree what you are while mainting yourself safe, and giving both parties the option to see that it's healthy for them.
As a neurotypical, I could not imagine myself fabricating affection of any kind for too long. In fact I rarely fabricate anything altogether, if I don't feel something I won't do it and that's a unspoken message that we are not friends or nothing and that's it - and that's NOT BAD.
For the people I like I can be sweeter than honey, and it comes natural.
I probably need a psychopathic friend, you could get down to business without so much noise lol.
It sounds like your cousin is not matched too well with her SO, and perhaps that is something that she should weigh as to whether or not his lack of affection is a dealbreaker for her, but she should caution herself when it comes to settling on something that means a great deal to her. That is what fosters regret.
One aspect you might be missing: They also may feel OFFENDED that you would tell them you’re a psychopath. If they found out on their own and secretly knew it might be a completely different story. They still want you to pretend you’re not a psychopath, even if you are. It might not be the fact you’re a psychopath that puts them off, it might be that you have the audacity to admit it.
Why would they be offended? Could you please elaborate about that, so I might understand it?
They might think “you expect me to still be friends with you DESPITE you not caring about me?”. Even if they know secretly without you telling them, at least you give them the respect of not assuming they’ll be okay with it.
Sometimes I watch opinion videos on YouTube or videos of those people who consider themselves predator hunters and whatnot and many times the person talking in the video throws around the phrase "you're a f****** sociopath" or " you're a manipulative psychopath"... And honestly it feels sorta nice to know what psychopathy really is and laugh at those comments internally. The myths and stigma are still constantly reinforced and I can't help but wonder when people will finally realize that most of the things (if not everything) they know about psychopathy are misconceptions and downright wrong!
That would be a lovely change of events, I agree
Athena, I know in the past you mentioned that you have no need of affection, nor do you "miss" people when they are absent. I am curious about why you DO have a SO. Is it for conversation or company? Do you engage in affection even if it is simply for his sake alone? I think you are so fortunate that you found someone who can manage a relationship with you despite your psychopathy. He must be incredibly confident within himself.
I have always said this about our relationship:
My preferred state is one of solitude. If someone comes along and improves on that state, I will do what I need to do to accommodate them and make adjustments to have them in my life. If they leave, I return to my preferred state of solitude.
Yes, he is very confident in himself, and that is one of the things I enjoy about him. I am affectionate to accommodate him, but you are correct, it is something that is unnecessary for me.
I did want to discuss James Fallon with you. You resolved everything I had doubts with. Seems like we can count on him being a true psychopath and not claiming to be one for publicity.
There is another thing. There is a period political Cdrama I am watching now, very trending. The way the male lead manipulates situations to his advantage and uses his silver tongue to charm and coax people is very interesting to watch. Although it feels sometimes that because the script is already written and it is not real life, the male lead will never fail. Of course he can beat unbeatable odds, it is foretold in the script. What I wanted to ask, was that has your life ever looked like that? Manipulating people and situations behind the scenes, charming them left and right. If anyone can make real life look like a , it will be a high functioning psychopath.
I would hope that no one's life resembles a drama of any sort. That would be annoying. Moving pieces around a board is just a part of life, however.
It would really depend on the personality of the non psychopathic partner and how familiar they are with the disorder. But if your not that informed and they the non psychopath is not that informed, I think it might lead to a harmful misunderstanding. This information your psychiatrist will hand you will come after a long history of flirting with antisocial (not always illegal, but, getting close) like lying and you fill in the rat that follows from lying. If you really don't care one way or another why burden someone, they have enuf to deal with and don't fix it if it ain't broken. Now I did tell my partner, but he grew up in a small city in Ethiopia until he was 26 and he told me he had seen all kinds of behavior and attiilike mine where he grew up and it reminded him of one of his older brothers who is bad and been in jail before, got kids and tons of exes everywhere, some fights, etc. according to him, the harsher the environment one lives or grows up in, the more common it is too see some of the darker attitudes and traits. I gre up in Canada, but he's like, your like someone rate off the streets, but your parents and family is so nice, what happened no you?.... I'm like, I got no amygdala babe , just the way it all shook out...
Another posible neologism: "Lucidtype". A conceptual counterpoint to "neurotypical"? While neurotypical denotes conformity to the dominant cognitive-emotional patterns of the human majority, lucidtype suggests a mode of being marked by clarity — a lucidity unfiltered by conventional affective or moral overlays. It describes not a deviation or a disorder, but a distinct kind of presence: incisive, perceptive, and often emotionally distanced. It is a term for those who do not feel at home in the collective fog of assumed emotional norms, yet whose detachment offers a different, sometimes unsettling, kind of insight.
Ooh yes, we absolutely want an update on Leanne and Jess!
That story had me captivated the entire time. I couldn't believe that sister - Joan, was it? Horribly selfish woman.
Indeed, she was
Probably already knows
Who probably knows?
Athena, This thread is mostly in the context of SO:
How about a larger social group? Say: Church.
A few times a year I "go to church". I really enjoy the singing. I raise my hands and I dance around a bit. Truly enjoyable. I really like it.
Usually the singing is at the beginning: Rather than leave, I bring a book or newspaper to read for the other parts.
This is also enjoyable: The nice church people who smile and show their warmth aren't nearly as friendly after seeing the newspaper. They dont say anything more, yet make it clear my presence is no longer desired.
There are infinite variations on this: NTs should try a variation to learn to read the reactions beyond words spoken.
I think this is the beef with the SO: It is not so much "a lie", nearly as much as the realization, the NT "didn't know"- can't pick up on it- is so easily fooled, duped, taken in- result overwhelming humiliation.
Perhaps you would have a warmer reception if you listened to a podcast on your earbuds, and your phone hidden away. Same effect, less judginess.
Especially if you only use one earbud and sit at the end of the aisle with that earbud concealed in the ear, not facing your seat neighbor.
yes, of course, you are absolutely correct: If I want a warmer reception.
I don't want a warmer reception. (I do want the physical experience of being there during the singing)
My example, above, is apparently awful or my writing bad:
I try to say NTs (or many people) don't realize:
1) they put off a great deal of information without realizing
2) they do not "read" this info that others give them constantly.
In the context of your material: NTs surprized to learn SO is not NT & wears a mask- it MAY be the humiliation that drives the breakup.
Their humiliation they "fell for it"- They lack ability to see beyond the mask.
Likely it is just me: I see low skill people without much interest or curiosity in life.
Imagine the opposite: you find your SO wears a mask!! WOW!! Show me how to do that!! It could be fun and interesting and make everything more rich and meaningful. Frankly, it makes me a bit randy just writing it