I’m not bad with problems in general. I usually see the solution, the action I should take, although I might not always want to take it! What I have to do though is the whole emotional back and forth first. Look at it one way, look at it the other way, back to the first way again. Usually my initial response is the correct one, the rest is mostly justification or ‘due diligence’ as I like to call it.
There has only been one time in my life when I was utterly confused, so emotional, so drained that I genuinely didn’t know which way to go. At this point it was hard logic that I craved. I didn’t want a response offering support, I didn’t want someone to show emotional empathy or sympathise with my situation. I have emotional empathy myself, bucket loads of it and it wasn’t helping, in fact it was hindering. Sometimes we need emotional support. Other times we need someone to remove the emotion entirely, see the problem and confidently point to the logical answer. “This is what must me done. This is why. Do it.”
For me, I recognised I was drowning emotionally and in a way I handed the reigns to someone else. The person I handed the reigns to was a psychopath, also online funnily enough. I will always be grateful to him for his cold, logical advice.
Different people have different strengths. Sometimes an empathic approach is helpful, other times you just can’t beat a psychopath!
Yes, totally. The cinematic portrayal of ‘psychopath’ makes my statement sound crazy. Once people understand more about what psychopathy actually is (and I’m still learning) the statement sounds far more logical!
A while back a woman came into the shop and had a sort of breakdown. I listened as I do and then told her straight how to handle some of her stuff. It wasn't hard at all since one thing was that her lease expired and I just said to start packing now and get busy finding a new place. There were a couple of other minor things that I don't recall details for
She came back a few weeks later and told me that I was a "Blessing from the Lord" and very wise.
I'm not a psychopath, but I am a highly logic-driven individual, especially when I hear other people's problems. I have been told that I am cruel, indifferent, or unkind in the past when dealing with emotional family members. I have had to learn how to couch feedback with language that will make it easier for them to swallow. It still drives me crazy when my family members want to tell me all about their problems but they are not interested in fixing their problems, nor do they want my advice. If I even hint that there's a solution, they get offended. I can handle it when someone "gives it to me straight" because I worked hard to overcome depression and had awesome therapists, read great books, and was willing to do the work. I learned that emotions don't have to rule the roost, nor do they have to be locked away. As most people are not psychopaths, and therefore have to contend with emotions vying for power over their logic centers, it requires conscious effort to learn how to rein in emotions and direct them with a firm hand. Too many people have acquired the bad habit of trying to suppress their emotions, which only works against them, or its diametric opposite of letting their emotions control everything they do or say. I sure do prefer interacting with people who aren't prone to offense and dramatics.
I've literally been told that I shouldn't tell the truth if it's unkind. Usually when I'm asking someone to stop doing something that is negatively impacting me. Thankfully my therapist helped me see that standing up for myself isn't being unkind, it's holding boundaries.
There is a big difference between telling someone the truth (necessary for human improvement) and black truths, which are designed to cause the person pain. Being blunt is not a black truth. It is being direct. If the bar to measure things by is "unkindness" there is no point in communicating in the first place.
Thank you for another great post. It's interesting that some people are helped by the direct action, I'm glad of that. To me, your words to them have a tone that I'm not sure is what you experience when writing them, but I'm writing this out in case you might clarify that point. Your list of suggested actions, in this case, seem calm and somewhat like fresh air to me, when I just read them after reading their list of actions -- which was murkily clogged up with unverbalized emotions. You didn't judge them; perhaps you were aware that that would not help? Or perhaps you don't experience the "judgment" thing with the bit of "I'm superior" that often goes along with that, in my experience.
So, when I read their words, I felt some frustration, bits of... "but JUST do THIS thing..." and it would have been difficult for me to be calm with them or even write in a way that sounds like that. Perhaps trained NT therapists are good at recognizing frustration in themselves, then not showing the frustration even while feeling it.
One possibly crucial bit -- long-term, excessive alcohol use apparently really messes with logic, so getting it stopped can help with other problems. I'm not a therapist though.
Judgement I think comes from an emotional place that wouldn't fire for me in reading that situation. As I am very solution oriented, I care only about fixing the problem. The rest is irrelevant to me.
I came across a great example in an MMO forum. Someone posted a solution to the problem of "Kill Stealing" at great length but they failed to even show that KS was actually a problem at all much less that it required a solution. Nonetheless they pretty much spilled their guts and showed that this was a very emotional thing for them.
Your feelings do not constitute reason to change very nearly anything. Much less something that would impact a lot of people who don't know you and don't have a problem
The person believed that just because they were in a location in game first that they were entitled to all mobs that spawn there. Game rules and mechanics are that whatever group does the majority of damage gets kill credit
I call what you are advising people to do "being the adult on the scene". We have choices and agency. Our emotions, when well cultivated and integrated with our senses and cognitive ability, help us to choose what will make life better for those around us when we don't have the the ability to articulate the needs we see.
Because I lack specific skills in engaging strangers who have something to defend (which I do not perceive). My emotional integration is wierd, and I've been bad at approaching people who I'm not conected to well but are defensive, but it is there. My wife and children and also others see it when I deal with parishioners at the church.
Sometimes we need to be shown that "it's really that simple". Sometimes the brain chemistry is so out of whack that our mental landscape is flooded with noise. When the neurotranmitter circulation is not working right, we can lose control of our thoughts in the noise. We medicate ourselves to try to continue to function, but then in the process, like hitting an old TV set to make it receive the picture, we screw up the chemistry balance even more.
I will say this however: people want to feel heard. In your case, the person who wrote to you understood he was in a crisis and was ready to listen. The time was right for your sober advice. On the other hand, (and I notice this more with women), some people just want to talk and feel understood. now this is a tricky one, because where does felling understood end and monopolizing and maipulating begin?
That is an excellent question, and frankly it really depends on the person. Some people never get enough emotional hand holding, and their entire purpose is to obtain that from others. Some, like this person, needed a way to move, and couldn't see it.
I think the people monopolising and manipulating are the attention seekers as a general rule. Always a drama, the world is against them, never their fault. The pity party is a means of getting attention. Attention is really what these people want, they aren’t actually looking for a solution and often they aren’t even seeking validation, the driver is attention.
Usually, people don’t broadcast their genuine problems. They try to solve them themselves. If a solution can’t be found then the individual concerned has to look for advice. If seeking advice then trust needs to be established. There needs to be trust that the opinion of the advisor is worth listening to and acting upon. Either this person is known for being logical / a strong problem solver or, this person has specific expertise in a relevant area.
The attention seeker doesn’t differentiate. Its a case of telling anyone who will listen because essentially anyone can provide the required attention.
I agree with Athena’s response to the question also. In some instances though some people do need the logical solution but then also need some emotional support in order to carry out this solution. An example might be an individual who is in an abusive relationship. Clearly the logical solution is that the individual must leave the abuser but they also might require emotional support whilst doing so.
I'm a big fan of posts like this, lots of practical takeaways regarding the process of finding solutions. Ultimately if you have a problem to fix that will improve your life, you need to ignore all the emotional variables at play and proceed with the solution.
So true. I, too, am still learning (Athena is an excellent teacher!). I am so glad I have had her posts and articles (and subsequent reader comments) to read and to confirm and reaffirm my knowledge of psychopathy. I actually had no knowledge of what psychopathy was/is until 2017. Little did I know how much better my life would have been had I known sooner. Thankfully I am better informed and continue to be quite interested in continuing the learning curve!
Thanks for the article. A very quick and kindof tangential comment; It's "kid gloves." Gloves made from the skin of a baby goat. So soft and comfortable.
I tend to be cut and dry in dispensing advice as well, I have learned to be extremely discriminate with empathy. People will suck you dry or invite you to take up residence within their chaos. I know I can be off putting at times but you live and learn right? You can lead a horse to water..... ❤
I think for emotional people the 'problem' they have has a lot of emotional noise attached to it but so do the solutions.
Someone might eat poorly to help manage their feelings of low self esteem, reduce anxiety through comfort eating etc. But now they are fat and the solution is to eat better to lose weight.
But eating better (the solution) could exasperate feelings of anxiety, deprivation, low mood, depression for someone that used to use food to keep all those emotions in check.
So on paper it looks like a simple solution is found and just needs adhering to but new emotional challenges arise with the solution/new course of action.
For a psychopath (I would assume) there is little to no emotional noise associated with the types of problems in their lives and little to no emotional challenges that arise from changing course and sticking to a solution.
Of course that doesn't change the fact that the person (in this case) should eat better, this is a fact, but may account for why they stumble getting to this fact and sticking with the solution Vs someone who has little emotion.
I felt the need to post this in light of a recent events in my life. I will not be dispensing any new and fascinating take on life here, so you can stop reading now if you’re hoping for anything entertaining or informative.
One pattern I’ve seen in my life with women is their proclivity for loading their problems onto men. I have a long list of females who’ve cried, bitched and whined to me about their problems. I reached my saturation point years ago and yet I’m still presented with bowel movements of self-pity laid at my feet - which I do my best to avoid. My problem is I still manage to conjure up feelings of compassion for these people. Two things makes this difficult for me. One, I can’t do anything about it to help them (at the end of the day, I’m still neurotypical (although I would never want to stop caring in general, at times like that I envy your dispassion and self-interest). Two, I become anywhere from annoyed to angry, because not one of them ever bothered to ask about me or my issues. Ever. I even had one of my oldest friends stand up from the table at which her husband and I were talking, and declare: “Men are whiners!” This ‘woman’ had been a walking bolus of self-centeredness and pity in the past, and more than once.
I see none of this in you. I see only logic and precise, helpful advice. It saddens me that you are so much better than the vast majority of ‘caring’ individuals in my NT world. I avoid hoisting my issues on others, and spend my time listening. I take what satisfaction in knowing that some of the seeds I spread take root, or seem to. At some point I stopped expecting even to be thanked for listening.
I will continue to care. It’s in my nature. And even though I know it’s biochemically-driven, I think it’s the right way for me to be. Maybe everyone, but I would never presume to lecture you on caring as a virtue you should adopt. As you can tell from this comment, plenty of bad emotion can come waltzing in with it like a spouse.
I apologies for the length. Thank you for your clarity and help for myself and anyone who read your posts. Please continue.
I have found a lot of people are so consumed with their issues, they never bother asking the other person how they are. It seems that many women take the infrequency that men speak about their problems to believe that they haven't any issues. I always found that fascinating. Men speak to me about their troubles rather easily. It is unfortunate that there aren't more people that males feel comfortable speaking to.
I discovered your answers when I was 18, exiting high school. I have not taken your advice on some things and ended up in situations I’d rather not have been in. I’m slowly coming around to things you’d advised me on, viewing it from different lenses, revisiting old ass messages. Long story shor, I should’ve reflected more on the advice that I asked for.
A few years after I can say I’ve totally changed my opinions on things compared to my 18 year old self and I continue to do so.
Id say without a doubt you are the most helpful and insightful person I’ve come across.
To anyone reading, read her advice, compare it to your own perspective of things, and formulate an emotional free course of decision making that may critically impact the way you decide on things.
I’m not bad with problems in general. I usually see the solution, the action I should take, although I might not always want to take it! What I have to do though is the whole emotional back and forth first. Look at it one way, look at it the other way, back to the first way again. Usually my initial response is the correct one, the rest is mostly justification or ‘due diligence’ as I like to call it.
There has only been one time in my life when I was utterly confused, so emotional, so drained that I genuinely didn’t know which way to go. At this point it was hard logic that I craved. I didn’t want a response offering support, I didn’t want someone to show emotional empathy or sympathise with my situation. I have emotional empathy myself, bucket loads of it and it wasn’t helping, in fact it was hindering. Sometimes we need emotional support. Other times we need someone to remove the emotion entirely, see the problem and confidently point to the logical answer. “This is what must me done. This is why. Do it.”
For me, I recognised I was drowning emotionally and in a way I handed the reigns to someone else. The person I handed the reigns to was a psychopath, also online funnily enough. I will always be grateful to him for his cold, logical advice.
Different people have different strengths. Sometimes an empathic approach is helpful, other times you just can’t beat a psychopath!
I agree with your last statement, but only after I became aware of psychopathy!
Hi NB,
Yes, totally. The cinematic portrayal of ‘psychopath’ makes my statement sound crazy. Once people understand more about what psychopathy actually is (and I’m still learning) the statement sounds far more logical!
A while back a woman came into the shop and had a sort of breakdown. I listened as I do and then told her straight how to handle some of her stuff. It wasn't hard at all since one thing was that her lease expired and I just said to start packing now and get busy finding a new place. There were a couple of other minor things that I don't recall details for
She came back a few weeks later and told me that I was a "Blessing from the Lord" and very wise.
Yes, I have had similar experiences, and it's interesting how different perspectives complement one another.
Have you found that providing a direct, straight line of action, for someone assists?
Just curious.
I have found to be true, that is, if they carry through on their own.
Most don't, unfortunately.
Frequently it does if they will do it
Yeah, I just edited my answer to reflect this
I'm not a psychopath, but I am a highly logic-driven individual, especially when I hear other people's problems. I have been told that I am cruel, indifferent, or unkind in the past when dealing with emotional family members. I have had to learn how to couch feedback with language that will make it easier for them to swallow. It still drives me crazy when my family members want to tell me all about their problems but they are not interested in fixing their problems, nor do they want my advice. If I even hint that there's a solution, they get offended. I can handle it when someone "gives it to me straight" because I worked hard to overcome depression and had awesome therapists, read great books, and was willing to do the work. I learned that emotions don't have to rule the roost, nor do they have to be locked away. As most people are not psychopaths, and therefore have to contend with emotions vying for power over their logic centers, it requires conscious effort to learn how to rein in emotions and direct them with a firm hand. Too many people have acquired the bad habit of trying to suppress their emotions, which only works against them, or its diametric opposite of letting their emotions control everything they do or say. I sure do prefer interacting with people who aren't prone to offense and dramatics.
I imagine that you also have had people tell you that they want the brutal truth, but if you give it to them they think you're mean for doing so.
I've literally been told that I shouldn't tell the truth if it's unkind. Usually when I'm asking someone to stop doing something that is negatively impacting me. Thankfully my therapist helped me see that standing up for myself isn't being unkind, it's holding boundaries.
There is a big difference between telling someone the truth (necessary for human improvement) and black truths, which are designed to cause the person pain. Being blunt is not a black truth. It is being direct. If the bar to measure things by is "unkindness" there is no point in communicating in the first place.
Thank you for another great post. It's interesting that some people are helped by the direct action, I'm glad of that. To me, your words to them have a tone that I'm not sure is what you experience when writing them, but I'm writing this out in case you might clarify that point. Your list of suggested actions, in this case, seem calm and somewhat like fresh air to me, when I just read them after reading their list of actions -- which was murkily clogged up with unverbalized emotions. You didn't judge them; perhaps you were aware that that would not help? Or perhaps you don't experience the "judgment" thing with the bit of "I'm superior" that often goes along with that, in my experience.
So, when I read their words, I felt some frustration, bits of... "but JUST do THIS thing..." and it would have been difficult for me to be calm with them or even write in a way that sounds like that. Perhaps trained NT therapists are good at recognizing frustration in themselves, then not showing the frustration even while feeling it.
One possibly crucial bit -- long-term, excessive alcohol use apparently really messes with logic, so getting it stopped can help with other problems. I'm not a therapist though.
Labyrinth is one of my favorite movies ever.
Judgement I think comes from an emotional place that wouldn't fire for me in reading that situation. As I am very solution oriented, I care only about fixing the problem. The rest is irrelevant to me.
I remember my high school track coach saying, "The straight line is the quickest." This phrase has always been with me.
That's a good one.
I came across a great example in an MMO forum. Someone posted a solution to the problem of "Kill Stealing" at great length but they failed to even show that KS was actually a problem at all much less that it required a solution. Nonetheless they pretty much spilled their guts and showed that this was a very emotional thing for them.
Your feelings do not constitute reason to change very nearly anything. Much less something that would impact a lot of people who don't know you and don't have a problem
What is it? Is it killing a character in order to steal from them?
The person believed that just because they were in a location in game first that they were entitled to all mobs that spawn there. Game rules and mechanics are that whatever group does the majority of damage gets kill credit
People like that guy take it very seriously .
Oh yes, that makes sense. If they are concerned about it, they should stop playing mutiplayer games.
Problem solved.
My guess is this individual has no one to speak to about their feelings.
I call what you are advising people to do "being the adult on the scene". We have choices and agency. Our emotions, when well cultivated and integrated with our senses and cognitive ability, help us to choose what will make life better for those around us when we don't have the the ability to articulate the needs we see.
Because I lack specific skills in engaging strangers who have something to defend (which I do not perceive). My emotional integration is wierd, and I've been bad at approaching people who I'm not conected to well but are defensive, but it is there. My wife and children and also others see it when I deal with parishioners at the church.
Sometimes we need to be shown that "it's really that simple". Sometimes the brain chemistry is so out of whack that our mental landscape is flooded with noise. When the neurotranmitter circulation is not working right, we can lose control of our thoughts in the noise. We medicate ourselves to try to continue to function, but then in the process, like hitting an old TV set to make it receive the picture, we screw up the chemistry balance even more.
I will say this however: people want to feel heard. In your case, the person who wrote to you understood he was in a crisis and was ready to listen. The time was right for your sober advice. On the other hand, (and I notice this more with women), some people just want to talk and feel understood. now this is a tricky one, because where does felling understood end and monopolizing and maipulating begin?
That is an excellent question, and frankly it really depends on the person. Some people never get enough emotional hand holding, and their entire purpose is to obtain that from others. Some, like this person, needed a way to move, and couldn't see it.
I think the people monopolising and manipulating are the attention seekers as a general rule. Always a drama, the world is against them, never their fault. The pity party is a means of getting attention. Attention is really what these people want, they aren’t actually looking for a solution and often they aren’t even seeking validation, the driver is attention.
Usually, people don’t broadcast their genuine problems. They try to solve them themselves. If a solution can’t be found then the individual concerned has to look for advice. If seeking advice then trust needs to be established. There needs to be trust that the opinion of the advisor is worth listening to and acting upon. Either this person is known for being logical / a strong problem solver or, this person has specific expertise in a relevant area.
The attention seeker doesn’t differentiate. Its a case of telling anyone who will listen because essentially anyone can provide the required attention.
I agree with Athena’s response to the question also. In some instances though some people do need the logical solution but then also need some emotional support in order to carry out this solution. An example might be an individual who is in an abusive relationship. Clearly the logical solution is that the individual must leave the abuser but they also might require emotional support whilst doing so.
I'm a big fan of posts like this, lots of practical takeaways regarding the process of finding solutions. Ultimately if you have a problem to fix that will improve your life, you need to ignore all the emotional variables at play and proceed with the solution.
Absolutely true!
Bravo, Bravo! Magnific! Outstanding writing and value from this post. Thank you, Athena.
Thank you kindly, Luiz
So true. I, too, am still learning (Athena is an excellent teacher!). I am so glad I have had her posts and articles (and subsequent reader comments) to read and to confirm and reaffirm my knowledge of psychopathy. I actually had no knowledge of what psychopathy was/is until 2017. Little did I know how much better my life would have been had I known sooner. Thankfully I am better informed and continue to be quite interested in continuing the learning curve!
Thanks for the article. A very quick and kindof tangential comment; It's "kid gloves." Gloves made from the skin of a baby goat. So soft and comfortable.
Did I write "kit"? That's funny, and I know that one too. I guess I was jut not paying enough attention.
Your posts are very nice, I learned a lot, thank you ❤️
Thank you for reading what I write, Medo
I tend to be cut and dry in dispensing advice as well, I have learned to be extremely discriminate with empathy. People will suck you dry or invite you to take up residence within their chaos. I know I can be off putting at times but you live and learn right? You can lead a horse to water..... ❤
I think for emotional people the 'problem' they have has a lot of emotional noise attached to it but so do the solutions.
Someone might eat poorly to help manage their feelings of low self esteem, reduce anxiety through comfort eating etc. But now they are fat and the solution is to eat better to lose weight.
But eating better (the solution) could exasperate feelings of anxiety, deprivation, low mood, depression for someone that used to use food to keep all those emotions in check.
So on paper it looks like a simple solution is found and just needs adhering to but new emotional challenges arise with the solution/new course of action.
For a psychopath (I would assume) there is little to no emotional noise associated with the types of problems in their lives and little to no emotional challenges that arise from changing course and sticking to a solution.
Of course that doesn't change the fact that the person (in this case) should eat better, this is a fact, but may account for why they stumble getting to this fact and sticking with the solution Vs someone who has little emotion.
Yes, I agree. When I have to make drastic changes for whatever reason, it is quite easy for me to do.
Athena
I felt the need to post this in light of a recent events in my life. I will not be dispensing any new and fascinating take on life here, so you can stop reading now if you’re hoping for anything entertaining or informative.
One pattern I’ve seen in my life with women is their proclivity for loading their problems onto men. I have a long list of females who’ve cried, bitched and whined to me about their problems. I reached my saturation point years ago and yet I’m still presented with bowel movements of self-pity laid at my feet - which I do my best to avoid. My problem is I still manage to conjure up feelings of compassion for these people. Two things makes this difficult for me. One, I can’t do anything about it to help them (at the end of the day, I’m still neurotypical (although I would never want to stop caring in general, at times like that I envy your dispassion and self-interest). Two, I become anywhere from annoyed to angry, because not one of them ever bothered to ask about me or my issues. Ever. I even had one of my oldest friends stand up from the table at which her husband and I were talking, and declare: “Men are whiners!” This ‘woman’ had been a walking bolus of self-centeredness and pity in the past, and more than once.
I see none of this in you. I see only logic and precise, helpful advice. It saddens me that you are so much better than the vast majority of ‘caring’ individuals in my NT world. I avoid hoisting my issues on others, and spend my time listening. I take what satisfaction in knowing that some of the seeds I spread take root, or seem to. At some point I stopped expecting even to be thanked for listening.
I will continue to care. It’s in my nature. And even though I know it’s biochemically-driven, I think it’s the right way for me to be. Maybe everyone, but I would never presume to lecture you on caring as a virtue you should adopt. As you can tell from this comment, plenty of bad emotion can come waltzing in with it like a spouse.
I apologies for the length. Thank you for your clarity and help for myself and anyone who read your posts. Please continue.
Sincerely, Rick L.
I have found a lot of people are so consumed with their issues, they never bother asking the other person how they are. It seems that many women take the infrequency that men speak about their problems to believe that they haven't any issues. I always found that fascinating. Men speak to me about their troubles rather easily. It is unfortunate that there aren't more people that males feel comfortable speaking to.
I discovered your answers when I was 18, exiting high school. I have not taken your advice on some things and ended up in situations I’d rather not have been in. I’m slowly coming around to things you’d advised me on, viewing it from different lenses, revisiting old ass messages. Long story shor, I should’ve reflected more on the advice that I asked for.
A few years after I can say I’ve totally changed my opinions on things compared to my 18 year old self and I continue to do so.
Id say without a doubt you are the most helpful and insightful person I’ve come across.
To anyone reading, read her advice, compare it to your own perspective of things, and formulate an emotional free course of decision making that may critically impact the way you decide on things.
That's very kind of you, Derrick.