I found it interesting how the matter of the choice of restaurant is settled. There’s no compromise in that scenario, no time delay on gratification. The key issue is the food desired, not the location. So it’s resolved by the takeaway. Both get what they want when they want it.
It still requires thought to come up with the solution. I assume then that both see the meeting as desirable, otherwise one or both would be equally happy to walk away from the meeting.
Im new to your writing, so the willingness to find a solution that accommodates the needs of both surprised me I think.
It is the reasonable solution. It’s a simple example, but it strikes a chord with me. My response to a similar example would likely be something along the lines of, “Ok, you choose this time, I’ll choose next time.” One win, one loss each. You look at the now and stick with what you want. There might not be a next time, so acting in the now is more logical.
You take into account the wishes of the other person, just not at the expense of your own.
Yes, logical and I think in some ways it’s also an absence of programming.
Those words would be out of my mouth before I even thought about it. Essentially, programmed to place the wishes of someone else above my own. I’m not sure if that’s an NT thing or a me thing!
Well, there is a short delay on gratification, it seems to me, unless they took separate transportation to the two restaurants and then met back at "home base", wherever that was. But aside from that, yes, you're right that it was a very elegant solution.
I think that NT's engage in a ton of projection when they speculate about what a psychopath would do. They see someone with no capacity for several emotions that they believe to be central to existence as a human and they then let us all know how they'd act if they could get away with it.
It's not called the "Fear of God" by them but it comes down to the same thing. It's funny but basically pursuing self interest can lead to a psychopath being a much better person than many who believe themselves to 'good people'
Yes, I agree. There is a great deal of assumption and projection. I know that is true of psychopaths towards neurotypicals as well. As much as I think that NTs service their emotions over logic, and think that is a choice that is being made, I have had many argue that isn't the case at all. The emotions are there regardless of their desire to feel them, and they are simply a part of how they experience the world. To me, that seems strange and not relatable at all. To them, it is the only way that they know.
Indeed, speaking as a more-or-less typical NT, I agree that emotions are here and simply a part of how we experience the world and our inner reality. Of course, what we then *do* with and about those emotions is a totally different question.
Trying to imagine what life would be like as you describe your reality is kinda mind-boggling. Also intriguing. I have created a PC in a table-top role-playing game (Cyberpunk) in order to explore what that might be like.
To my chagrin, I'm finding it more challenging than I anticipated not to react emotionally when certain of my "buttons" get pushed. So far, it's telling me a lot more about how I'm reacting as an NT than what it would be like to have a psychopathic brain. Still, I'm hanging in there. I'm convinced that experimenting with a "why should I care" mantra will expand my horizons and help me be less reactive in those situations where I'm a bit over-reactive.
LOL, yes, one can hope so. I once created a mischievous character because I wanted to reclaim more of my own mischievousness. It worked fairly well. So I am hopeful.
I recall when my ex-wife left me spending a lot of time being perplexed as to how I was suppose to react
Looking back now and understanding more about how my brain works I can see it as rather funny. So sort of the opposite of what you're attempting in the RPG
LOL, yes, exactly. Similar tons of projection from (some) religious folks who ask what atheists would do under various circumstances. Ie, those religious folks who ask this question assume that morality can arise only through a belief in God.
Yes, that same type of argument is constantly in the religious versus nonreligious spaces and it is illogical to me. It certainly says more about the person asking the question, "What keeps you from raping and murdering your neighbor if you don't believe in God," than it does the nonreligious person looking at them in confusion wondering what God has to do with preventing that decision even becoming an option to be acted upon.
“What keeps you from raping and murdering your neighbor if you don't believe in God”
If no one knew, what would you do?
Mirror neurons: A natural inborn aversion or disgust in causing harm to others, unless morally justified, such as in self defense.
Fear of getting caught by law enforcement, the state.
Fear of private retribution, from the victims cohort.
I have no fear of spiritual retribution, or karma.
Best evidence indicates that universe is utterly indifferent, I’m just a temporary assemblage of atoms that will cease to exist, and will have no awareness that had ever existed, as is everyone and everything else.
Thank you this insightful and well written post. As always, you make me laugh abit:
"I could see more lazy and entitled psychopaths seeing this as a way to have the state pay for them while they figure out how to make the prison system work for them."
I am probably a sociopath- but for sure "lazy and entitled"!! Hahaha. I was in prison for just a minute and did really well there. Except for not being able to leave, the system worked for me.
And this: Cutting to the quick sobering:
"You are just living in the fruits of intellectual labor and blood that waters the grounds on which you walk. Consider what you take for granted and imagine yourself coming up with it on your own"
Thanks again for including me. Please continue your wonderful work.
I wonder what residential, business and government buildings would look like, and if aesthetic guidelines would exist at all. I would imagine office and other residential buildings would be stark and purely functional, geared toward expedience and efficiency. I could also see a well-tended house sitting in between two decrepit ones, with no issues between the neighbors other than encroachment.
Who knows - all conjecture on my part. How do you think cities and neighborhoods would look?
Both he and I prefer aesthetically pleasing buildings. Neither of us see the value nor point of the brutalist architecture. It conveys nothing to either of us. Both of us much prefer intricate stone masonry, marble, hand carved wood, and things of that sort. I think modern architecture is boring and lazy.
This post, and specially, Blackstone’s Formulation, reminded me of the short story "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" by Ursula K. Le Guin. If you don't know this classic yet, I recommend you to read it:
You ever someone who plays the long game.... Like very very long? Spreads love and compassion, let's others show exactly who they are? Then quietly exits with their souls?
That's crazy talk. Na, that guy probably just wanted love. Got the souls as a consolation prize. Crappy people crappy souls.
I saw a weird thing in a weird place. Don't mind me. As one exceptionally sane crazy person to another. I love your work.
Your post is very humorous!! Possibly you allude to the possibility, rather than the actual, exit with souls?
if human have "souls", laws govern at least some aspects of "soul". -Smiles- What precludes any of us from experimenting and finding the limits of those laws? Hehehe. I am like you: Crazy talk.
There isn't anything, it's essentially delusions concocted by people who don't wish to contemplate nonexistence.
Going deeper "spirit" in ancient traditions is literally oxygen or "breath" and the concept of "chi" is simply a crude observation of the ATP energy cycle in living beings.
Might there be something else? Yeah, it's possible but it's a lead pipe cinch that it's in no way like the religious concepts of spirits and souls and the supernatural
Obviously Athena's threads and work deserve our full consideration even as we respond to each other.
Just to acknowledge that I read your words, not to propose a further discussion.
Leaving "God" or 'god" or gods, what about man.
Is there more to man than what we can see physically? You know? ESP. Auras. etc.
Socrates spoke of the ether, where ideas originate. Where they exist right now?
Our brains make a cranial pulse 8-12 per minute. Our bodies do ALOT we (as scientific beings) we don't know and surely don't understand.
I respectfully suggest to you, that part of us exists beyond our physical body and deserves some sort of name. Soul seems uncomfortable to some, so I ask: What is preferred? I certainly want to accommodate you and speak with you clearly,
Have a great one. And please- Don't take me seriously!!
I imagine a world predominantly ruled by functional pro-social psycopaths would be a world in which the temperance of emotions and the restraining of base passions would be encouraged - since those things are second nature to the psycopathic mindset, it seems; and they're a big part of its inherent competitive advantage.
Such dynamics likely ebb and flow, within the dance of nations and empires.
Psychopaths are, after all, just another neurodiverse group whose representativity and influence likely varies across time and space. Maybe it would not be unreasonable to try to infer the predominance of ther mindset by comparisson to the matching values on a social scale.
As the saying goes " by the fruit you shall know the tree".
The Age of Reason (aka The Enlightenment) seems to me like last time it might have thus happened.
I found it interesting how the matter of the choice of restaurant is settled. There’s no compromise in that scenario, no time delay on gratification. The key issue is the food desired, not the location. So it’s resolved by the takeaway. Both get what they want when they want it.
It still requires thought to come up with the solution. I assume then that both see the meeting as desirable, otherwise one or both would be equally happy to walk away from the meeting.
Im new to your writing, so the willingness to find a solution that accommodates the needs of both surprised me I think.
It's the most logical choice. Why should he compromise, and why should I? We can both have what we want, so that is the reasonable solution.
It is the reasonable solution. It’s a simple example, but it strikes a chord with me. My response to a similar example would likely be something along the lines of, “Ok, you choose this time, I’ll choose next time.” One win, one loss each. You look at the now and stick with what you want. There might not be a next time, so acting in the now is more logical.
You take into account the wishes of the other person, just not at the expense of your own.
Not just logical, it's brilliant. It's possible that NTs could think of that solution as well. But definitely logical thinking is involved.
Yes, logical and I think in some ways it’s also an absence of programming.
Those words would be out of my mouth before I even thought about it. Essentially, programmed to place the wishes of someone else above my own. I’m not sure if that’s an NT thing or a me thing!
Usually we want to see the same things as we share interests, but if not, double feature.
Well, there is a short delay on gratification, it seems to me, unless they took separate transportation to the two restaurants and then met back at "home base", wherever that was. But aside from that, yes, you're right that it was a very elegant solution.
I think that NT's engage in a ton of projection when they speculate about what a psychopath would do. They see someone with no capacity for several emotions that they believe to be central to existence as a human and they then let us all know how they'd act if they could get away with it.
It's not called the "Fear of God" by them but it comes down to the same thing. It's funny but basically pursuing self interest can lead to a psychopath being a much better person than many who believe themselves to 'good people'
Yes, I agree. There is a great deal of assumption and projection. I know that is true of psychopaths towards neurotypicals as well. As much as I think that NTs service their emotions over logic, and think that is a choice that is being made, I have had many argue that isn't the case at all. The emotions are there regardless of their desire to feel them, and they are simply a part of how they experience the world. To me, that seems strange and not relatable at all. To them, it is the only way that they know.
Indeed, speaking as a more-or-less typical NT, I agree that emotions are here and simply a part of how we experience the world and our inner reality. Of course, what we then *do* with and about those emotions is a totally different question.
Trying to imagine what life would be like as you describe your reality is kinda mind-boggling. Also intriguing. I have created a PC in a table-top role-playing game (Cyberpunk) in order to explore what that might be like.
To my chagrin, I'm finding it more challenging than I anticipated not to react emotionally when certain of my "buttons" get pushed. So far, it's telling me a lot more about how I'm reacting as an NT than what it would be like to have a psychopathic brain. Still, I'm hanging in there. I'm convinced that experimenting with a "why should I care" mantra will expand my horizons and help me be less reactive in those situations where I'm a bit over-reactive.
That is an interesting thought experiment with your character. Maybe exploring it will give you less of a reaction to buttons in general.
LOL, yes, one can hope so. I once created a mischievous character because I wanted to reclaim more of my own mischievousness. It worked fairly well. So I am hopeful.
I recall when my ex-wife left me spending a lot of time being perplexed as to how I was suppose to react
Looking back now and understanding more about how my brain works I can see it as rather funny. So sort of the opposite of what you're attempting in the RPG
:-) Yes, I can see how that would be both challenging in the moment and funny in retrospect.
LOL, yes, exactly. Similar tons of projection from (some) religious folks who ask what atheists would do under various circumstances. Ie, those religious folks who ask this question assume that morality can arise only through a belief in God.
Yes, that same type of argument is constantly in the religious versus nonreligious spaces and it is illogical to me. It certainly says more about the person asking the question, "What keeps you from raping and murdering your neighbor if you don't believe in God," than it does the nonreligious person looking at them in confusion wondering what God has to do with preventing that decision even becoming an option to be acted upon.
“What keeps you from raping and murdering your neighbor if you don't believe in God”
If no one knew, what would you do?
Mirror neurons: A natural inborn aversion or disgust in causing harm to others, unless morally justified, such as in self defense.
Fear of getting caught by law enforcement, the state.
Fear of private retribution, from the victims cohort.
I have no fear of spiritual retribution, or karma.
Best evidence indicates that universe is utterly indifferent, I’m just a temporary assemblage of atoms that will cease to exist, and will have no awareness that had ever existed, as is everyone and everything else.
"The less desirable a job, the larger the reward for doing it. " Great food for thought!
Thank you this insightful and well written post. As always, you make me laugh abit:
"I could see more lazy and entitled psychopaths seeing this as a way to have the state pay for them while they figure out how to make the prison system work for them."
I am probably a sociopath- but for sure "lazy and entitled"!! Hahaha. I was in prison for just a minute and did really well there. Except for not being able to leave, the system worked for me.
And this: Cutting to the quick sobering:
"You are just living in the fruits of intellectual labor and blood that waters the grounds on which you walk. Consider what you take for granted and imagine yourself coming up with it on your own"
Thanks again for including me. Please continue your wonderful work.
Thank you, Tim
I wonder what residential, business and government buildings would look like, and if aesthetic guidelines would exist at all. I would imagine office and other residential buildings would be stark and purely functional, geared toward expedience and efficiency. I could also see a well-tended house sitting in between two decrepit ones, with no issues between the neighbors other than encroachment.
Who knows - all conjecture on my part. How do you think cities and neighborhoods would look?
Both he and I prefer aesthetically pleasing buildings. Neither of us see the value nor point of the brutalist architecture. It conveys nothing to either of us. Both of us much prefer intricate stone masonry, marble, hand carved wood, and things of that sort. I think modern architecture is boring and lazy.
This post, and specially, Blackstone’s Formulation, reminded me of the short story "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" by Ursula K. Le Guin. If you don't know this classic yet, I recommend you to read it:
https://learning.hccs.edu/faculty/emily.klotz/engl1302-6/readings/the-ones-who-walk-away-from-omelas-ursula-le-guin/view
Ooo a story, thank you. I like stories.
You ever someone who plays the long game.... Like very very long? Spreads love and compassion, let's others show exactly who they are? Then quietly exits with their souls?
That's crazy talk. Na, that guy probably just wanted love. Got the souls as a consolation prize. Crappy people crappy souls.
I saw a weird thing in a weird place. Don't mind me. As one exceptionally sane crazy person to another. I love your work.
Your intelligence is showing. You know that!
Your post is very humorous!! Possibly you allude to the possibility, rather than the actual, exit with souls?
if human have "souls", laws govern at least some aspects of "soul". -Smiles- What precludes any of us from experimenting and finding the limits of those laws? Hehehe. I am like you: Crazy talk.
Well considering that souls aren't real he didn't get away with much
aren't real? -smiles- Come closer, lets talk!! hehehe.
I was a situation that tuned my ability (or capacity) to identify personality flaws in others.
If you wish, you can use that to manipulate them or protect them. Probably dozens of other things.
Since souls are not real, what is the correct nomenclature for that which exists beyond the physical attributes of men? hehehe. Don't mind me!
There isn't anything, it's essentially delusions concocted by people who don't wish to contemplate nonexistence.
Going deeper "spirit" in ancient traditions is literally oxygen or "breath" and the concept of "chi" is simply a crude observation of the ATP energy cycle in living beings.
Might there be something else? Yeah, it's possible but it's a lead pipe cinch that it's in no way like the religious concepts of spirits and souls and the supernatural
Obviously Athena's threads and work deserve our full consideration even as we respond to each other.
Just to acknowledge that I read your words, not to propose a further discussion.
Leaving "God" or 'god" or gods, what about man.
Is there more to man than what we can see physically? You know? ESP. Auras. etc.
Socrates spoke of the ether, where ideas originate. Where they exist right now?
Our brains make a cranial pulse 8-12 per minute. Our bodies do ALOT we (as scientific beings) we don't know and surely don't understand.
I respectfully suggest to you, that part of us exists beyond our physical body and deserves some sort of name. Soul seems uncomfortable to some, so I ask: What is preferred? I certainly want to accommodate you and speak with you clearly,
Have a great one. And please- Don't take me seriously!!
Interesting
I imagine a world predominantly ruled by functional pro-social psycopaths would be a world in which the temperance of emotions and the restraining of base passions would be encouraged - since those things are second nature to the psycopathic mindset, it seems; and they're a big part of its inherent competitive advantage.
Such dynamics likely ebb and flow, within the dance of nations and empires.
Psychopaths are, after all, just another neurodiverse group whose representativity and influence likely varies across time and space. Maybe it would not be unreasonable to try to infer the predominance of ther mindset by comparisson to the matching values on a social scale.
As the saying goes " by the fruit you shall know the tree".
The Age of Reason (aka The Enlightenment) seems to me like last time it might have thus happened.
Perhaps
It's pretty much impossible to say, as nation building is quite complex with a great number of moving parts, and a lot of nuance.