The best line I’ve heard when asking an opinion about a clothes purchase was delivered by my dad.
“I bought this today dad, what do you think?”
“I’ve seen you look nicer.”
Thank God. Ok good. An honest opinion, from someone who knows me well, knows what looks good on me and genuinely wants me to feel and look my best. He is not a black truth teller, but he is always honest with me.
I used the same line on my teenage daughter. She also exchanged the item and for the same reason. Sometimes I have to bite my tongue and accept her fashion choices, she’s her own person, but if I’m asked, I’m honest.
My view on it is “If you don’t want my honest opinion, then don’t ask.” Personally, I’d take a black truth over a white lie any day of the week.
Lastly, I think I might start drawing. I might have been selling myself short there!
I only tell the black truth if I think I can make them laugh with it. Not a lot of people can laugh at themselves, but when they do it’s a good laugh.
What I find interesting is that you go back and forth so long with someone who clearly did not want an honest opinion. Why bother?
I try to be honest in every situation especially when I care about the person. But if I’m just going to end up irritated I shut them down asap.
The first clue was when they said, “I need people who know how to use words to examine how I have used mine...”.
As a writer who learned to take brutal truth in a writer’s group, this tells me that the person has already been read by someone who told them they needed to work harder and they told themselves the other person was stupid.
I think that he may have misunderstood what he was getting into in terms of a response. Likely he didn't consider the difference between asking a psychopath, and asking a neurotypical.
I have no concern about what he thinks. He asked, he received, he was angry. Nuts to him, that's his problem.
A great example of a brutally honest book review is Mark Twain’s review of "The Book of Mormon" in 1861:
“All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few except the "elect" have seen it, or, at least, taken the trouble to read it. I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so "slow," so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle--keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate. If he, according to tradition, merely translated it from certain ancient and mysteriously-engraved plates of copper, which he declares he found under a stone, in an out-of-the-way locality, the work of translating was equally a miracle, for the same reason. The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James's translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel--half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern--which was about every sentence or two—he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as "exceeding sore," "and it came to pass," etc., and made things satisfactory again. "And it came to pass" was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet.”
Great work!! Truly enjoyable and entertaining read: When I got to this line:
"You seem quite prickly for someone who claims not to get offended"
I just lost it and broke out laughing!!
I'm not close enough anymore to make any white lies: I will examine my own self and see if my honestly, normally pretty brutal, has elements of black to it. It is possible, I enjoy hurting people and excusing myself of "honesty".
Thanks to you for bringing this aspect out. I had never considered this aspect: Honesty on a continuum. Thanks!!
This isn't exactly relevant, but after seeing the bridge drawing I just have to share this link. Athena, if you drew that bridge, maybe you really do have a deep mathematical intuition for "torsional oscillations with steadily increasing amplitude"... (ok I'm a geek.)
p.s. sometimes internet exchanges re. issues where a person has... sensitivity... (like writing skill if a person was really hoping they have it) can kind of go south without tons of delicate explanations. Sometimes they go south anyway. My experience with it is not that I'm lying, I don't tend to try to do any of the above types of statements (white, brutal, or black) - but I sometimes try to create careful responses that acknowledge the person's wish to have that skill in some way that isn't directly dishonest. Not sure if that makes sense... I might have done the white lies more if I didn't dislike lies I guess, but I don't like causing harm, I often relate to the feeling too much. Yet as you say it often is not helpful long-term to give incorrect feedback.
I'm putting lots of qualifiers in here but the subject needs them.
Sure; I'm sure us autistics aren't in the top 1% on that either. As you've noted before, most NTs don't understand what those words mean, nor do I really. One can try to have a variety of tools available for different situations, this kind of "delicacy" is one I've made attempts at for some situations. People with hurt feelings can be very hard to deal with, for one thing, so avoiding that can simplify social matters -- aside from the issue of not doing harm, if you're attempting that.
oh brother i related to this one a little too much LMAO.
i had to learn slowly that most people are very much NOT okay with brutal honesty while i had a direct sense of handing it out since i thought truthfulness is what made a good friend. (probably a sunday school lesson on honesty gone overboard...)
i really do have to laugh now though. i.e. when a playmate was over just a bit too long: "okay, can you call your mom to pick you up now? it's time for you to go." somewhat similar to the shopping example, i would say stuff like: "no, i really think that looks like something an old lady gets buried in."
i never understood until the whole world was mad at me for years (and my mom finally told me in adulthood there was an actual reason) that other people even CALLED it brutal honesty - i knew the term, but not the precise meaning - so i've really had to work on a balance to fit in a world that's kinda not built for people like me/not built for attainability of people who aren't NT in general. (and not as many people are angry now🥳)
i think my mind is very accustomed to running on a "see something, say something" battery that i have to filter before it gets to anyone and potentially damages their entire being. but as i was reading this (going along with a bit of your commentary) i got to thinking, if someone's core being is that easily damaged from me saying "well, right now, your singing kinda reminds me of a cat stuck on a roof, but i think it would sound less sharp if you picked a song in your natural range because that's definitely not it; you're straining like hardcore" (yes, i did, and no, she did not get a callback for the disney film. i can word it much better now though), doesn't that reveal a deeper problem that needs to be tended to? because whenever i was at a point in life when i was easily hurt by other's comments, it's because there were WAY bigger things happening underneath. now, i am taking the best care of those that i can and, consequentially, when people (that have my best interest in mind/i trust the opinion of) are brutally honest/blunt with me, i usually do take it into mind because "you know what yeah, i really do need to get off my lazy ass and stop sitting in bed today like a potato, right on, sarah, brb let me take a walk" - usually they have a "zoom-out" perspective that helps me.
if it comes from a place of ill intent, i'm finally able to realize that the comment is just words likely more a projection of their own inner selves (and even so, i still examine it and search it for scraps of truth and if i find none, i throw it completely out).
it's also nice to have a name for black truths, as i've seen many of them and never thought of a name like that; and a damn accurate name as well.
and athena, i'm very glad you haven't gone into engineering, we appreciate your service in not-engineering but also your service in writing 🤭 (i quite needed the laugh and the read, thank you)
I relate to the, "You've been here too long. Leave." mentality.
My mother said that when I was young and at someone's house, when I didn't want to be there anymore I would just fuck off and leave. It freaked the parents out because they thought they had lost me. My mother tells them, "no, she's just come back here..."
I was not of an age that walking home on my own was considered safe. I think I was three.
for real though and i would kind of stare in shock when "here's my home phone, what's your mom's number?" or "no i don't want to play with you i want to play by myself" made other kids cry because my social battery just needed recharging for a few like...weeks.
oh my god the kids parents thought they lost you bc you left at age three, i don't know why i feel like that would be one of those short stories or something
narrator: and athena had had enough peopleing, so she walked herself home without telling a soul
reader: seems reasonable enough
narrator: she was 3 years old
reader: 😱
i mean even at three years old i feel like yeah, if you're done, you're done
I have always believed that this is the most accurate portrait (self-portrait, in fact) of that kind of people who throw black truths just to do indiscriminate harm and enjoy themselves in the meantime (although, ultimately, all they are doing is poisoning themselves):
“I became a sort of Gorgias of the Florentine cafés—Gorgias, who, to solace himself for his own loss of nerve, for his own broken pride, amused himself by blasting, withering, the self-assurance of other people, demolishing the theories and systems they set up, refuting every positive statement they made, taking advantage, in so doing, not only of their weaknesses or their ignorance, but also of his own bad faith, unfairness and obstinacy. I delighted now in filling the heads of dogmatists with doubts, in silencing enthusiasts, in ridiculing fanatics, in humiliating glib talkers. It was a bitter, malicious, futile form of amusement, but it gave me pleasure. It was the only vengeance within my reach. Deliberately now I sought out people, not to convince them, as I had formerly done, but to unsettle them, bewilder them, make them again like myself. Very few could hold their ground. A vigorous manner of talking, a gift for speaking offhand, my practice in argument and debate, my ready wit, my knowledge of various philosophies, and a brazen fondness for showing my erudition quickly gave me as a rule the windward position. I had mastered method: I had every manoeuver, every trap, every thrust, at my instant disposal.”
-Giovanni Papini, “The Failure” (Un Uomo Finito, 1913)
Note: Gorgias of Leontini (427 BCE) was a famous Greek Sophist who claimed that nothing exists and, even if it does, its nature cannot be understood and, even if it could be, one is not able to communicate that understanding to another person.
Athena, you are on point with your information. Once again you have hit my awareness. How many time I have told people I am brutally honest, no matter what. Thanks for sticking to the science not the ever popular stereotyping.
As a member of four different writers groups over a period of 25-ish years, yes one does hope for the ego gratification. And yes the first bit of honest feedback is a little bit of a shock. AND YET if one sticks with taking in the honest feedback and doing the work to learn the craftsmanship, one CAN arrive at the point of ego gratification -- earned.
And sometimes one needs a great teacher and well-designed course. I know you've said you cannot draw. I recently took a course in cartooning which had some students who were kinda in that cannot-draw ball park. And yet, after 26 weeks of daily exercises (well, 5 days a week), even these students had gone way beyond stick figures (which were a challenge for them when we first encountered the stick figures) into quite competent cartoons. Professional as in earning money? No. But certainly good enough for the enjoyment of friends and random strangers. The course starts *before* anything as complicated as a square, btw. It starts with circles. An entire week of circles. And not perfect circles, either. Sketchy circles. Ovalish circles. Incomplete circles. Spiraling circles. Just lots and lots and lots of circles. And I would bet real money (like $5) that a course of that nature *could* enable you to learn to draw.
So to my mind, black truths need to be both honest and if possible, kind. Which I know goes against the whole idea of black truths. But essentially, when I say kind, I mean including "Here's what you would need to do in order to improve. There's no guarantee you would reach the level of skill you aspire to, but it's likely you *would* improve. So if you want to put in the time, here's what you need to do."
That's why I noted "if possible". Indeed black truths by definition are not kind. So I'm actually endorsing honest truths, which can sometimes feel quite brutal. I once gave feedback that a person in my writers group needed to learn how to write sentences. Basically because I couldn't understand many of his sentences even though I'd earned a living as a prose editor. Ie, someone who revised other people's words to make them more readable. I'd also said I didn't think an agent/purchasing editor would have read past page 3, which was actually a white lie as I didn't think they would have read past paragraph 2, if that far. That person never returned to the group; he'd been a member for more than 10 years and had always gotten "encouraging" feedback before I and one other person gave him honest feedback. We tried to be not-brutal, but the truth was brutal. I/we didn't say he was so terrible he should quit writing. I/we said if you want to get better, here's what you need to do. Of course, learning to write sentences is pretty basic.
I would have thought that your advice would have been the most valuable. You should know this information if your intent is to become a professional writer. If your work isn't going to make it past the initial glance, you are wasting your time.
I guess that praise was more important to him than success.
Praise, and likely the comraderie of "fellow writers". He'd been a member already when I joined, and I'd been there probably about 10 years at this time. My fellow co-conspirator and I were basically no longer willing to keep reading his stuff if he didn't improve (which he hadn't). Thus the end to our "kind feedback" and moving on to the honest-and-somewhat-brutal variety. As it turned out, our action split the group, which was 12 people at that time.
OTOH, my experience in writers groups is that most folks do want honest feedback and do want to improve -- and they do put time and energy and effort into doing that. But many also want ... not exactly validation, but something down the lines of "you can do this" encouragement to bolster insecure confidence levels. When you tell a writer he needs to learn how to write sentences because you don't understand what he has written -- (a) that's a message that yes, he can learn, however (b) he's a really really really long way from being competent.
However, if you meant that it was strange that our feedback split the group, the "other" side felt that "encouragement" was more important than the stark truth. And 12 members is too large and unwieldly, anyway.
It was indeed a great course. I'd be happy to post one of my cartoons -- if Athena can tell/show me how to send her a png. Including over on Quora if that's the best route. BTW, I wasn't one of the "I can't draw" students. But definitely cartooning felt beyond me.
Athena, regarding human lie detectors etc, this has caught my attention:
"Poker Face", a show about a mystery-solving sleuth who has the (supernatural?) ability to tell when someone is lying, and based on the trailer, it looks like her extraordinary skill can get her in trouble more often than not:
''Dealing with the emotional downfalls of rejection and self-limitation is difficult, but it shouldn’t be avoided for the sake of someone’s feelings''. Gotta love Athena's conclusions in her articles.
The best line I’ve heard when asking an opinion about a clothes purchase was delivered by my dad.
“I bought this today dad, what do you think?”
“I’ve seen you look nicer.”
Thank God. Ok good. An honest opinion, from someone who knows me well, knows what looks good on me and genuinely wants me to feel and look my best. He is not a black truth teller, but he is always honest with me.
I used the same line on my teenage daughter. She also exchanged the item and for the same reason. Sometimes I have to bite my tongue and accept her fashion choices, she’s her own person, but if I’m asked, I’m honest.
My view on it is “If you don’t want my honest opinion, then don’t ask.” Personally, I’d take a black truth over a white lie any day of the week.
Lastly, I think I might start drawing. I might have been selling myself short there!
That is a great line, I agree
"I've seen you look nicer." Wow that is awesome.
Hi Wyn,
Yes it is. I’m incredibly blessed to have a dad like him.
Samuel Johnson is credited with a famously devastating remark about a book he was evaluating:
"Your manuscript is both good and original; but the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good."
I have read manuscripts like this...
That is an excellent quote indeed.
I only tell the black truth if I think I can make them laugh with it. Not a lot of people can laugh at themselves, but when they do it’s a good laugh.
What I find interesting is that you go back and forth so long with someone who clearly did not want an honest opinion. Why bother?
I try to be honest in every situation especially when I care about the person. But if I’m just going to end up irritated I shut them down asap.
The first clue was when they said, “I need people who know how to use words to examine how I have used mine...”.
As a writer who learned to take brutal truth in a writer’s group, this tells me that the person has already been read by someone who told them they needed to work harder and they told themselves the other person was stupid.
That is a very likely possibility.
I think that he may have misunderstood what he was getting into in terms of a response. Likely he didn't consider the difference between asking a psychopath, and asking a neurotypical.
I have no concern about what he thinks. He asked, he received, he was angry. Nuts to him, that's his problem.
Perhaps
A great example of a brutally honest book review is Mark Twain’s review of "The Book of Mormon" in 1861:
“All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few except the "elect" have seen it, or, at least, taken the trouble to read it. I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so "slow," so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle--keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate. If he, according to tradition, merely translated it from certain ancient and mysteriously-engraved plates of copper, which he declares he found under a stone, in an out-of-the-way locality, the work of translating was equally a miracle, for the same reason. The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James's translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel--half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern--which was about every sentence or two—he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as "exceeding sore," "and it came to pass," etc., and made things satisfactory again. "And it came to pass" was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet.”
I imagine that this criticism would be received about as well as the guy took his.
Thank you for presenting this passage!! I had no idea!!
Hahaha: "...chloroform in print." Pretty funny!!
I've had to fall back on a sort of noncommittal reply such as, "You know, that's not really a good look for you"
Most of my friends know not to push at that point.
Great work!! Truly enjoyable and entertaining read: When I got to this line:
"You seem quite prickly for someone who claims not to get offended"
I just lost it and broke out laughing!!
I'm not close enough anymore to make any white lies: I will examine my own self and see if my honestly, normally pretty brutal, has elements of black to it. It is possible, I enjoy hurting people and excusing myself of "honesty".
Thanks to you for bringing this aspect out. I had never considered this aspect: Honesty on a continuum. Thanks!!
Thank you, Tim
Thank you so much. Your words are always insightful for me. I respect your knowledge.
This isn't exactly relevant, but after seeing the bridge drawing I just have to share this link. Athena, if you drew that bridge, maybe you really do have a deep mathematical intuition for "torsional oscillations with steadily increasing amplitude"... (ok I'm a geek.)
Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XggxeuFDaDU
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Tacoma-Narrows-Bridge
p.s. sometimes internet exchanges re. issues where a person has... sensitivity... (like writing skill if a person was really hoping they have it) can kind of go south without tons of delicate explanations. Sometimes they go south anyway. My experience with it is not that I'm lying, I don't tend to try to do any of the above types of statements (white, brutal, or black) - but I sometimes try to create careful responses that acknowledge the person's wish to have that skill in some way that isn't directly dishonest. Not sure if that makes sense... I might have done the white lies more if I didn't dislike lies I guess, but I don't like causing harm, I often relate to the feeling too much. Yet as you say it often is not helpful long-term to give incorrect feedback.
I'm putting lots of qualifiers in here but the subject needs them.
Perhaps if delicate explanations are required, a psychopath is not the place to seek them.
About 1000 LOL's on this one.
Sure; I'm sure us autistics aren't in the top 1% on that either. As you've noted before, most NTs don't understand what those words mean, nor do I really. One can try to have a variety of tools available for different situations, this kind of "delicacy" is one I've made attempts at for some situations. People with hurt feelings can be very hard to deal with, for one thing, so avoiding that can simplify social matters -- aside from the issue of not doing harm, if you're attempting that.
oh brother i related to this one a little too much LMAO.
i had to learn slowly that most people are very much NOT okay with brutal honesty while i had a direct sense of handing it out since i thought truthfulness is what made a good friend. (probably a sunday school lesson on honesty gone overboard...)
i really do have to laugh now though. i.e. when a playmate was over just a bit too long: "okay, can you call your mom to pick you up now? it's time for you to go." somewhat similar to the shopping example, i would say stuff like: "no, i really think that looks like something an old lady gets buried in."
i never understood until the whole world was mad at me for years (and my mom finally told me in adulthood there was an actual reason) that other people even CALLED it brutal honesty - i knew the term, but not the precise meaning - so i've really had to work on a balance to fit in a world that's kinda not built for people like me/not built for attainability of people who aren't NT in general. (and not as many people are angry now🥳)
i think my mind is very accustomed to running on a "see something, say something" battery that i have to filter before it gets to anyone and potentially damages their entire being. but as i was reading this (going along with a bit of your commentary) i got to thinking, if someone's core being is that easily damaged from me saying "well, right now, your singing kinda reminds me of a cat stuck on a roof, but i think it would sound less sharp if you picked a song in your natural range because that's definitely not it; you're straining like hardcore" (yes, i did, and no, she did not get a callback for the disney film. i can word it much better now though), doesn't that reveal a deeper problem that needs to be tended to? because whenever i was at a point in life when i was easily hurt by other's comments, it's because there were WAY bigger things happening underneath. now, i am taking the best care of those that i can and, consequentially, when people (that have my best interest in mind/i trust the opinion of) are brutally honest/blunt with me, i usually do take it into mind because "you know what yeah, i really do need to get off my lazy ass and stop sitting in bed today like a potato, right on, sarah, brb let me take a walk" - usually they have a "zoom-out" perspective that helps me.
if it comes from a place of ill intent, i'm finally able to realize that the comment is just words likely more a projection of their own inner selves (and even so, i still examine it and search it for scraps of truth and if i find none, i throw it completely out).
it's also nice to have a name for black truths, as i've seen many of them and never thought of a name like that; and a damn accurate name as well.
and athena, i'm very glad you haven't gone into engineering, we appreciate your service in not-engineering but also your service in writing 🤭 (i quite needed the laugh and the read, thank you)
I relate to the, "You've been here too long. Leave." mentality.
My mother said that when I was young and at someone's house, when I didn't want to be there anymore I would just fuck off and leave. It freaked the parents out because they thought they had lost me. My mother tells them, "no, she's just come back here..."
I was not of an age that walking home on my own was considered safe. I think I was three.
for real though and i would kind of stare in shock when "here's my home phone, what's your mom's number?" or "no i don't want to play with you i want to play by myself" made other kids cry because my social battery just needed recharging for a few like...weeks.
oh my god the kids parents thought they lost you bc you left at age three, i don't know why i feel like that would be one of those short stories or something
narrator: and athena had had enough peopleing, so she walked herself home without telling a soul
reader: seems reasonable enough
narrator: she was 3 years old
reader: 😱
i mean even at three years old i feel like yeah, if you're done, you're done
People can be so very needy and unreasonable.
I have always believed that this is the most accurate portrait (self-portrait, in fact) of that kind of people who throw black truths just to do indiscriminate harm and enjoy themselves in the meantime (although, ultimately, all they are doing is poisoning themselves):
“I became a sort of Gorgias of the Florentine cafés—Gorgias, who, to solace himself for his own loss of nerve, for his own broken pride, amused himself by blasting, withering, the self-assurance of other people, demolishing the theories and systems they set up, refuting every positive statement they made, taking advantage, in so doing, not only of their weaknesses or their ignorance, but also of his own bad faith, unfairness and obstinacy. I delighted now in filling the heads of dogmatists with doubts, in silencing enthusiasts, in ridiculing fanatics, in humiliating glib talkers. It was a bitter, malicious, futile form of amusement, but it gave me pleasure. It was the only vengeance within my reach. Deliberately now I sought out people, not to convince them, as I had formerly done, but to unsettle them, bewilder them, make them again like myself. Very few could hold their ground. A vigorous manner of talking, a gift for speaking offhand, my practice in argument and debate, my ready wit, my knowledge of various philosophies, and a brazen fondness for showing my erudition quickly gave me as a rule the windward position. I had mastered method: I had every manoeuver, every trap, every thrust, at my instant disposal.”
-Giovanni Papini, “The Failure” (Un Uomo Finito, 1913)
Note: Gorgias of Leontini (427 BCE) was a famous Greek Sophist who claimed that nothing exists and, even if it does, its nature cannot be understood and, even if it could be, one is not able to communicate that understanding to another person.
He sounds a bit exhausting to deal with.
What a wonderful and completely on point post!! TY!
I don't quite know how much of my self is in there! Thanks for presenting a baseline case!!!
Hehehe!!
Athena, you are on point with your information. Once again you have hit my awareness. How many time I have told people I am brutally honest, no matter what. Thanks for sticking to the science not the ever popular stereotyping.
As a member of four different writers groups over a period of 25-ish years, yes one does hope for the ego gratification. And yes the first bit of honest feedback is a little bit of a shock. AND YET if one sticks with taking in the honest feedback and doing the work to learn the craftsmanship, one CAN arrive at the point of ego gratification -- earned.
And sometimes one needs a great teacher and well-designed course. I know you've said you cannot draw. I recently took a course in cartooning which had some students who were kinda in that cannot-draw ball park. And yet, after 26 weeks of daily exercises (well, 5 days a week), even these students had gone way beyond stick figures (which were a challenge for them when we first encountered the stick figures) into quite competent cartoons. Professional as in earning money? No. But certainly good enough for the enjoyment of friends and random strangers. The course starts *before* anything as complicated as a square, btw. It starts with circles. An entire week of circles. And not perfect circles, either. Sketchy circles. Ovalish circles. Incomplete circles. Spiraling circles. Just lots and lots and lots of circles. And I would bet real money (like $5) that a course of that nature *could* enable you to learn to draw.
So to my mind, black truths need to be both honest and if possible, kind. Which I know goes against the whole idea of black truths. But essentially, when I say kind, I mean including "Here's what you would need to do in order to improve. There's no guarantee you would reach the level of skill you aspire to, but it's likely you *would* improve. So if you want to put in the time, here's what you need to do."
A black truth is, by definition, not kind. A black truth is told with the intent of causing harm. Backhanded compliments are a form of it.
"You really inspire me. I could never wear those pants if I had your thighs."
"It amazes me how you take life by the horns. I never see you not get dessert".
That's why I noted "if possible". Indeed black truths by definition are not kind. So I'm actually endorsing honest truths, which can sometimes feel quite brutal. I once gave feedback that a person in my writers group needed to learn how to write sentences. Basically because I couldn't understand many of his sentences even though I'd earned a living as a prose editor. Ie, someone who revised other people's words to make them more readable. I'd also said I didn't think an agent/purchasing editor would have read past page 3, which was actually a white lie as I didn't think they would have read past paragraph 2, if that far. That person never returned to the group; he'd been a member for more than 10 years and had always gotten "encouraging" feedback before I and one other person gave him honest feedback. We tried to be not-brutal, but the truth was brutal. I/we didn't say he was so terrible he should quit writing. I/we said if you want to get better, here's what you need to do. Of course, learning to write sentences is pretty basic.
I would have thought that your advice would have been the most valuable. You should know this information if your intent is to become a professional writer. If your work isn't going to make it past the initial glance, you are wasting your time.
I guess that praise was more important to him than success.
Praise, and likely the comraderie of "fellow writers". He'd been a member already when I joined, and I'd been there probably about 10 years at this time. My fellow co-conspirator and I were basically no longer willing to keep reading his stuff if he didn't improve (which he hadn't). Thus the end to our "kind feedback" and moving on to the honest-and-somewhat-brutal variety. As it turned out, our action split the group, which was 12 people at that time.
Truly strange.
From a logical point of view, yup, strange.
OTOH, my experience in writers groups is that most folks do want honest feedback and do want to improve -- and they do put time and energy and effort into doing that. But many also want ... not exactly validation, but something down the lines of "you can do this" encouragement to bolster insecure confidence levels. When you tell a writer he needs to learn how to write sentences because you don't understand what he has written -- (a) that's a message that yes, he can learn, however (b) he's a really really really long way from being competent.
However, if you meant that it was strange that our feedback split the group, the "other" side felt that "encouragement" was more important than the stark truth. And 12 members is too large and unwieldly, anyway.
Those are good examples- so cutting!
Congrats on your course of 1/2 year!! Good job. I am very encouraged of your post and results.
A week of circles? Wow. That is $5!! hahaha.
Best wishes!! Please find some excuse to post one of your works here with Athena.
It was indeed a great course. I'd be happy to post one of my cartoons -- if Athena can tell/show me how to send her a png. Including over on Quora if that's the best route. BTW, I wasn't one of the "I can't draw" students. But definitely cartooning felt beyond me.
It won't allow me to post images in the comments section for some reason.
Truly a shame!! -smiles- Maybe there is an alternative?
I look forward to seeing your work!! Maybe a cartoon of us here on Athena's threads??? Hope to see something soon!
Unfortunately, it will not allow me to post images in the comments section, not in the threads section of Substack
bummer
You can send it to my email- TheRealAthenaWalker@gmail.com
Some people who contact you must be capable of taking your opinion sensibly. Otherwise, why bother?
Many are, many aren't.
Bring it. I prefer the black truth unless it’s an attempt to stick it to me because they are insanely jealous.
Black truths aren't for your benefit, they are meant to cause harm. Blunt truth I think is what you would prefer.
Athena, regarding human lie detectors etc, this has caught my attention:
"Poker Face", a show about a mystery-solving sleuth who has the (supernatural?) ability to tell when someone is lying, and based on the trailer, it looks like her extraordinary skill can get her in trouble more often than not:
https://youtu.be/UH5uGZ9SW7A
''Dealing with the emotional downfalls of rejection and self-limitation is difficult, but it shouldn’t be avoided for the sake of someone’s feelings''. Gotta love Athena's conclusions in her articles.