You write: Psychopaths are immune to addiction, and there isn’t any ambiguity in what addiction is.
LOL. I can't tell if that applies to me or not. It seems for the moment, addiction is, for me, very ambiguous. I can't tell you if I am addicted or not!! Hahaha.
Sex, alcohol, illegal drugs, legal drugs, pornography? At one time or another, I said I was addicted to them all!!
Thank you for making your work available. I hope you continue for a very long time.
Narcissists require narcissistic supply, or ‘fuel’ would be a better way to describe it. To me, this is an addiction. The narcissist is absolutely driven in his pursuit of fuel, subconsciously it is a requirement for survival similar to the requirement for food and water. So would this be another reason that psychopathy and NPD can’t co exist within the same person? Narcissists are addicted to fuel and psychopaths would never experience this addiction?
If there is an article where you break down the concept of the narcissistic psychopath I’d appreciate it if you could direct me to it please Athena. Also how is it that psychopaths are immune to the chemical side of addiction? I can understand them not having the emotional side to addiction, but chemical too?
Back after my little summer social media pause. Interesting article, I can understand the frustration at having your motivation for writing about psychopathy repeatedly questioned and invalidated by people who don’t even bother to question openly and honestly. Lack of understanding is forgivable given the quagmire of mixed terminology out there about psychopathy, sociopathy and ASPD. Refusal to understand is something very different.
I don't really have a lot to say about the notion of a narcissistic psychopath because I find the term misleading and not particularly valuable as a term.
Thank you Athena. Having those three articles back to back helps. It is a misleading term but it seems to be repeated over and over, so I keep trying to reconcile how NPD and psychopathy could exist together. I always end up at the same conclusion, NPD and psychopathy are fundamentally different, they couldn’t exist together. Often what people are referring to I think is a Malignant Narcissist but labelling this ‘Narcissistic Psychopath’.
The term narcissistic psychopath crops up so often though, I keep questioning again if there isn’t something in it. Then I’m back in the same loop again!
If you look in DSM-5, you will find the term Antisocial Personality Disorder, and there may be some discussion within that description of psychopathy and sociopathy, but for purposes of diagnosis, it is ASPD. Sociopathy and NPD may indeed have comorbidity, and the DSM leaves room for conflating psychopathy and sociopathy.
Narcissistic Personality Disorder is my specialty. I teach it, treat it, publish articles about it in peer reviewed journals. There is no such thing as a narcissistic psychopath. Pretty much all these diagnoses have in common is a lack of emotional empathy and self-centeredness. Sometimes they can appear similar. I will leave it Athena to explain the differences between these diagnoses.
Athena was very helpful to me in getting me motivated to tighten up my diagnostic language and distinguish sociopathy from psychopathy. You can have a sociopathic narcissist.
I don't write a great deal on it because I am not a sociopath, so I would prefer they speak for themselves as they are far better informed about how things are for them
Interesting that you can have a sociopathic narcissist. I wonder if that isn’t confusing me too. When you say sociopathic narcissist do you mean someone who is a sociopath who also has NPD? Or, do you mean someone who has NPD who also has sociopathic traits? Sorry for my confusion.
It is based on a dopaminergic reward system. Our brain consolidates past experiences into memory with neurotransmitter dopamine, also known as learning. Dopamine release is normally experienced as a pleasure. A specific amount of dopamine is release upon executing an action and it serves us as a reward, a motivation if you will. It motivates us to engage in behaviour that will maximize our contact with a positive stimuli. It makes us want to repeatedly do something again and again.
Addiction comes in play when we become dependent on a particular stimuli for that dopamine kick. It is arguable where exactly the threshold is but it might onset when consequences of a behaviour become counterproductive and harmful. Bear in mind that this is a linear process and an addiction is a discrete term.
I would speculate that psychopaths might have altered brain structures involved in the said system. Amygdala and prefrontal cortex seem to be two of them.
Yes, definitely something I like about this space, people really looking to broaden their perspectives on the subjects up for discussion. Thank you too for your kind words of encouragement Tim.
Yes, I agree with you so much: Athena's work causes (compels?) each of us to "broaden"!! Broaden in a good way. About how our brains work and why we do what we do.
If Shakespeare were alive today, he would be on this substack learning from Athena.
My psychopath friend uses most illicit drugs (just not heroin) at irregular intervals, sometimes everyday and sometimes not at all but she was just telling me yesterday that she thinks she can’t be addicted. I thought that was interesting, and since I find her very self-aware, I didn’t question her. She does have a code, though. She only uses the hard stuff, like cocaine, when she feels aligned with herself. She also goes through times when she uses drugs often, but never displays what I would consider to be addict behavior and she just as quickly gets completely sober if she wants to. I’m not saying your experience is wrong. I am also curious if you had physical addiction (as in you experienced withdrawal symptoms), but possibly not emotional addiction? My friend has experienced physical addiction, but I have been around plenty of addicts and can say that I have never seen emotional addiction from her. That seems to be the real part of the addiction that is being talked about here, I think. That is why my friend won’t use heroin. She knows that the physical addiction is intense and doesn’t want to go there. Does that track for you, I wonder?
Hey Tifani: Is your question directed to me (it came up on my notices as directed to me) or Athena who is Billion times more insightful and informative than me: I hope she also replies to you. Anything I say is likely dangerous or silly.
Your friend says she "can't be addicted". But doesn't use heroin.
She sounds really aware and very smart. Probably a real live wire and fun person to be around.
In NA and AA, they write in the Big Blue Book, about a unicorn they call the "periodic": Irregular interval use "maybe" like your friend.
Bill W and the other founders were NOT periodics but felt they knew about them. they said these "addicts" were the hardest to help. They write about it quite a bit for the rare beings of "periodic".
Big Book has a section of stories, about individual addicts, I find really interesting. I think even Abraham Lincoln is quoted there. You might enjoy that part. Maybe 30 stories?
Many years ago, I did attend AA for a couple months. I was not really accepted. I was a reject from "AA"- haha.
They said I was not an alcoholic and to come back when I had a problem. I did learn alot and enjoyed the experience (in CA, with lots of options, every single day different options) Maybe in another state it would suck?
As best I could figure, maybe I was a "periodic" in their nomenclature.
Prior to that, I had a very bad experience, where I drove on the 405 Freeway, in a busy time, at high speed, where I was Sh*tfaced. I would like to say I am embarrased about that or humilated, but I am not. I just don't want to ever do that again. So I made the changes to not do that, to never do that and I haven't again. I have not driven even with one beer or one drink, since. I just don't do it any more.
"..completely sober"- I know what you mean by this: you mean actively under the influence. Right. I think Athena has to help me here: A pyschopath will look beyond that (I think) Yes, a person gets completely sober, yet various illegal hard drugs diminish the quality and performance of their system. You know? There is a cost.
I don't think pyschopaths make those tradeoffs, but I don't know.
I don't experience physical withdrawal. I don't quite know what you mean by emotional addiction. I seem to lose interest more than anything else.
Maybe opportunity as well: the first girl I lived with had never done LSD and had sex! I was quite surprized by that. For about 9 months, we enjoyed all sorts of pyschedelic drugs in our sex. When I think of that time, I think of her and the scent of jasmine that grew at our place, not the drugs.
I don't "miss" her, but I do think about her in the context of me growing up and learning lessons and such things. I don't "miss" the jasmine, but every time I smell it, I think of that time and place. And I don't "miss" the drugs.
But if you bring some over? And want to do some? For sure!!! hehehe. Sex too? LOL. Sure lets have a good time, but I don't seek that out. I'm not going to buy any or ask for some.
I can't imagine this is helpful to you. But let me hit post right now before I delete the whole thing!!@ Best wishes! I'm certain Athena has far more insightful and sensible things to say than my babble of ancient and historical events!!
No, this is perfect!!! I definitely meant to respond to you. I didn’t ask to get information and then go ‘splain to my bestie about herself. I am best friends with a psychopath because she expands my world in beautiful ways. When I responded to you, I was looking for this exact expansion of insight.
I could be wrong, but when you talk about your addiction, it sounds less like addiction to me and more about drug-induced impulse control issues that make it super wise for you to not partake. Emotional addiction is when people are using drugs to emotionally cope with trauma and keep going back to the drugs because they can’t emotionally cope with life. Maybe that is a poor explanation, but that is how I understand it. Yes, it also leads to poor behaviors and desperation to return to drugs to the point that people then engage in addictive behavior such as betraying people that they want a relationship with. While your drug-induced behaviors were life-threatening, they seemed to me like they weren’t brought on by a downward spiral of needing to cope with life. That would be emotional addiction. An emotionally addicted person also couldn’t have just walked away from drug use like that. So, I think you answered my question, provided you are also a psychopath and provided I understand and interpreted correctly.
Whether I got it wrong or right, I really appreciate the time you took in your thorough response. It was exactly the insight I wanted.
Just learning Substack so I got your response notification, but didn’t find it until today.
I was never a counselor, but took enough addiction counseling classes to have the certificate if I had done the internship in college. So, yeah, they are the same. I actually went to AA, NA, AL-Anon meetings as part of the education, also. That is how I also know about the difference between emotional addiction and physical dependency. Emotional dependency is the reason people need to go to meetings because that is almost always the reason people return to addiction. Addiction is just a coping mechanism for pain that we don’t have better coping skills for. People who feel accepted and connected to others don’t tend to struggle with addiction. But, imagine if a person’s brain was wired to not need approval of others, like, say, a psychopath. What would they even need to medicate besides boredom? Boredom is easier to deal with than someone who stops numbing their trauma monsters through drugs and then find all of their monsters out of Pandora’s trauma box to tell them how useless they are. Those monsters can drive a person to suicide if they don’t self-medicate somehow.
That is why I think Athena is so good at making the distinction between a psychopath and a narcissist. A narcissist does feel the shame. They just suppress perspective-taking by convincing themselves that others would do the same to them if they had the chance. A psychopath is genetic wiring that alters the brain’s reward system and keeps cognitive empathy, but not emotional empathy. My psychopath friend found out through a brain scan for something else that she has this wiring. If there was still a DSM criteria for psychopathy, she would not meet the diagnostic criteria behaviorally. Because she is an emotionally healthy, genetic-only psychopath, her brain wiring is something I find to be incredibly insightful and usually actually more moral than my own. Anyway, I’m rambling because I have ADHD and I’m fascinated by all of this, but she tells me the truth about her experiences and it seems very clear to me that she can’t have emotional addiction. I have seen her lose very important people to her, but she’s shrugged, told me how sad it was for them that they couldn’t see themselves in order to coexist with her, and she’s moved on. There was some sadness, but nothing that would keep her from going off to work like nothing is wrong. I have no illusions that the same wouldn’t go for me, but I have come to see that level of friendship as quite healthy. We choose each other to talk to for hours, not because we are emotionally enmeshed, but because, in that moment, the other is the one we want to be with and we enrich each other’s lives. There are no roles or social expectations to this friendship, no hurt feelings, only honesty. I’ve applied this way of existing with my very traumatized partner who has endured childhood slavery and survived the Rwandan genocide. It has brought us to a really healthy way of coexisting because social expectations trigger him and drain me.
So, my ADHD rambling or stream of consciousness or whatever is really just to say that her way of engaging with people feels healthy to me and has no elements of the social qualities that create emotional addiction. In fact, those social elements can even be healing to anybody if they are wise enough to learn from a person who is genetically a psychopath.
Thanks for such a great post!! I really enjoyed reading just now. It is about 1 am and I am drinking coffee at my home in Mexico.
You posit "Self Medication as an alternative to suicide". I'm hoping this isn't so common an idea, that I shouldn't choose now to really experience this! Wow. It feels really great you write that!! I like this very much. it has the broad strokes, big picture power that is so helpful.
Shame: As far as I know, I do not personally feel shame or ashamed or "you should be ashamed of yourself"- hehehe.
Suppress: I could just be in denial, but I don't think I suppress any thing or any emotion. I don't have to suppress them, at least, I don't think. Maybe I am just so good at it, I do it automatically on some deep level? I don't know.
Shame and such things to suppress are "bad" things, so pardon me, if I do not present illustrations.
Boredom: I don't experience this. Several times my love interests comment on this: they say that I make even going grocery shopping fun. But it is equally true I am never under time pressure. Without time, who can have fun? If I go to get my tires changed, or do laundry, I am still up for a good time. I still want to engage with the people around me.
Morals: I know about these things. It often involves ideas imposed by others. Good luck with that. I often choose to comply, but I do not accept judgments of others readily. If you are my friend, and you are with me, I will give my life to physically protect you. I would not expect or even think you would thank me for doing so. It is my way and really doesn't involve you.
Lose people: If I write you off, you are gone without a trace and no sadness. If we just lose contact, I will keep you until I see you again.
Now: I saved this: cognitive empathy for the end: Athena writes on this extensive. She is an expert and I defer to her. She knows the terms and what they mean and how to apply them.
It appears some people say "cognitive empathy includes (me) knowing how the other person feels": how they actually in fact: Feel.
No. I have not one clue as to how you feel. To me, I can't tell if you feel different than Athena.
I have no consideration or insight into "feelings" no matter who has them.
It is hard for me to write and I often write then delete several times: I can not tell how my words might be recieved. I often find them taken for offense. I often find my "best" writing engenders no response.
I do enjoy the experience of writing, even when I delete, even several times. You see? That is pretty normal, very NT. And not at all "anti social". -smiles-
thanks again for your kind and insightful post. I really enjoyed reading and making my reply.
I can understand the frustration of having ill informed intrusive busybodies claim to know more about you than yourself.
Some people in the comments sections of my posts take exception to the logical and professional way I write and accuse me of lacking compassion and then proceed to tell me about my supposed flaws as a human being and a therapist. Then after they insult me (LOL), they end by giving me the most insulting diagnosis they can think of: No, not a psychopath, they tell me I am a Narcissist.
If someone decides that they understand me and want to share their insights about me, they should be happy that I don’t care to tell them my insights about them.
I am not sure why you get so much flack. I know you are a psychopath but I really don’t get why people care so much. So what. You write good articles, you give lots of valid information, you are polite.
And I agree about those scans of the internet coming up with mistaken information.
Just about everyone on Quora who talks about IQ gets it wrong. They give a number like 250. The WAIS (Perhaps the best most taught IQ test ever that takes most of a day to administer) only goes up to a theoretical 150-160. Real IQ testers can only compare scores from different tests by changing them into percentiles. That is what MENSA does. They accept everyone who scores in the top 2 % or better.
So I did an internet search and found all these IQ charts showing IQs going up to numbers 250 or over without specifying which test. Then I looked up the articles on smartest people ever. Again, every article I saw listed a numerical IQ without the equivalent percentile it represented or the name of the test. I started to write a post for Quora explaining this but ….not sure it is worth it. Someone claiming to be a genius because they claim they have an IQ of 250 is the IQ version of being an Edge Lord. Sigh….
I think for some men psychopath is a very desireable diagnosis in a sense. A lot of "alpha bros" are advertising that men should adopt traits that are basically psychopathic.
The thing is with any of these things is that if someone can state that they are something, and get status from that, then some will find that desireable. Such as the word 'empath' is a good example. Or high IQ. Then a lot of people will do it then fight over the definition to define themselves that way. In the animal world status still equals resources.
With psychopathy. There are a lot of men who... to quote a gym guy I follow on twitter... "Think they are 4000 times better fighters than they are". There are a lot of guys who have been pushed down on the animal heirarchy for some reason and want to have a justification as to why they are "secretly" tougher than their oppressors. Or perhaps just need some claim to fame after something of the child abuse variety has destroyed their inner worlds.
The trouble is is that if you are pretending to be something and then someone comes along that really is that thing and takes the status away from you, then that is going to cause rage.
I find the notion of being psychopathic as a status symbol rather silly. If a person wants to mold and hone their personality into the best version of themselves that they can be, they should do that. They should be aspiring to actually useful traits, and psychopathic traits as a whole are neither useful nor are they useless. It all depends on how they are used, which is true of all traits.
If the person simply determines what is important and valuable to them in terms of who they want to be, and then work to become that person, there is nothing to be taken away. There aren't any shortcuts to being a decent, strong, or high-value person. It takes actually looking at who you are, who you wish you were, and the steps in between that need to be taken to get to where you want to get to.
This might be over simplistic, but in terms of psychopathy as a status symbol I think it falls under the same umbrella as ‘Sex Sells’. It’s a concept people are fascinated by thanks largely to incorrect depictions in film. Psychopathy was glamourised by Hollywood and breaking the Hollywood version down with the truth is likely going to take considerable time and effort. People are captivated by a myth and whilst they are, there will be no shortage of online wannabe bad boys morphing into what they believe psychopathy to be.
Notice how the people are salivating over him? For me this is a weird thing to say like, why would you like someone specifically because of fighting style? But you can see the mindset here.
I was not able to find the usual crap on twitter since even one post like that and I unfollow. Tate seems to have hit a genuinely positive spiritual place. But here is one that is reaching in that direction without going there:
"You can't fall for manipulation when you don't give a fuck.
Nobody can fool you if you don't give them any attention to begin with.
Stop caring. It's that simple.
We ball."
I think it's partly difficult to find more messed up takes because the culture has shifted a lot. But I have seen a lot of posts like 'As a man you never express your feelings' and all that kind of thing.
Like I said, or alluded to, there are a lot of guys who like to think they are super tough and a psychopath, in relation to the mainstream adaption of that, (like Amos) is the manifestation of that. Rather like how women have an emotional conviction they are right when they are telling stories without context and so they label their ex partner a "narcissist" to quickly achieve the preferred emotional reaction from others.
Furthermore, the reason this "tough guy" culture exists anyway is because women are profoundly attracted to it. This is all said in jest but, it is basically true. Also from twitter, apologies for the lewdness:
Person 1: TOP 3 Pussy Drying topics
1. Video Games
2. Bitcoin
3. Your Job
She wants to fuck-stop boring the shit out of her
Person 2: So you're suggesting to quit your job?
Wtf..
Person 1: Don’t quit your boring ass job.
Just tell her you recently got out of jail and are unemployed
Person 3: This works. I told a girl I was on the run. Her response “ I love criminals”
I don't quite know where you are going with the second half of your post. I do not know what it is that makes you think most people are pursuing virtue in their lives.
OK, the reason I said that was you changed the prefix from 'they', to 'you'; so I wondered if you were trying to comment or ask anything beyond the general thoughts on this type of potential psychology. But I don't think that's likely otherwise I would have answered that.
Oh yes, I know just what you mean about the IQ section of Quora, and I don't have the training that you do to have more insight to how incorrect the things talked about there are. I simply cannot engage with that section or the people that are heavily focused on the topic. I simply cannot be bothered dealing with them. There was a huge overlap between them and the psychopathy section a number of years ago. I passed on so many questions wanting to know my IQ. I don't know it, I don't care to know it, nor can I comprehend why it would matter to anyone else.
Of course, there were a lot of edge lord "psychopaths" that claimed to be in the high 190s for IQ as well. They also would have a whole slew of other things that made them extraordinary. Now, the IQ thing has fallen off some, but it is still one of the markers that seem to be indelibly linked to those seeking attention.
This article is a really good one. I have realised recently that I have slowly stopped being interested in your articles for the "psychopathy" angle and become actually interested in your articles for their output.
Yeah, I think arrogance is a very difficult demon to slay. There are some that are just immune to it . For whatever reason (Perhaps out of a legitimate desire for virtue?). But most are not and many, many of the problems we encounter in every day life are from people that haven't self reflected, and so arrogance kind of takes over.
What is weird about it is that, like all "sins" so to speak. Behaviours done out of arrogance, or the need to be right, seem to manifest even when they go against the persons own survival instincts. I.e. they will lose a close friend due to arrogance they can't really afford to lose. Or get in a work squabble due to arrogance, and try and prove themselves right against someone that is really valuable. Perhaps many time more skilled than the perpetrator.
Arrogance for me was kind of caught up in a delusional sense in my youth. Arrogance is extremely costly, because previously, if I have been arrogant, I will believe delusional ideas that I can dismiss in a healthy state. But have run away from me with very bad effects when I was younger. This is one of the benefits to me of being very religious. When I get one of the delusional ideas about being super smart or starting my own religion or something. I passionately pray and engage in Christian material until it subsides. That 'Jesus' takes the wheel so to speak.
Before, when I came across the non-stigmatized information about psychopaths (thank you, btw. You were one of the people that I learn what psychopathy really is from), I was like "hey, that makes sense to me". But sometimes I would think "hm, am I trying to be an edgelord or is it because those experiences really click something in my mind and for the first time in forever something makes sense as to how I experience the world?"
I have always felt as an outsider my whole life, not in a bad way tho. It was always like "I don't quite understand what's going on around me and how I don't truly fit in, but why?". That's when years later I got my autism level 1 of support diagnosis and everything made sense. I was like "I knew I was different".
So nowadays, I'm sure that when I say here on the comment sections that I relate to some psychopathic experiences you share with us, It's not me trying to be an edgelord or call attention lol. It's one more way of confirming my way of seeing and experiencing the world. I don't know if it's for the fact that psychopathy and autism are neurodivergencies, so naturally our brains will experience the world differently from neurotypicals.
Yes, I agree very much about the tendency to mix these things up and the struggle for some sort of self diagnosis for self knowledge. I have heard self diagnosis defended well by autists.
So much of what Athena says so directly correlates with my experience. It is eerie. Reading her posts is like reading someone making manifest the thoughts in my own mind. Even in this post itself, her taking peoples responses to her and showing it but not out of ego but rather like someone might demonstrate how a car works or something. Is a behaviour I also have and one I have very rarely observed in others. I often wonder if people will think I am just personally upset about whatever it is but no, I actually want to show the behaviour and I think that is a good way to do it. Almost every article has a correlation like this.
Psychopathy seemed likely a valid self diagnosis when I came on here. ESPECIALLY when Athena said part of her diagnosis was when she was told to write and re write about an experience, and what they were looking for is "emotional language". I know for myself that it doesn't matter how many times I was asked to write and re- write something, emotional language would never be a feature. I have also carefully observed the difference between me and other men I know, to be sure that it is not just the tendency of men in general.
But psychopathy fell from favour as my preferred self diagnostic label for if it is ever needed. I really can't get the "vibe" of autism, I don't have routines, stim, have meltdowns or have most of the symptoms - I actually enjoy autistic content creators and imagine knowledge of the condition will generally serve me well socially. So I attached to another label (schizoid); it fits, but in truth, I have no idea. I think it's best to just work on symptoms where the label itself is not an issue, and the issues are not of a sort that others have to give accommodations, and the problem doesn't have to be explained to others.
I do have a religious leaning and I do think that the God has a plan for such things. I think these issues have come up for a reason which will be relevant to my future.
Yes!! Completely! The self diagnosis as a form of self knowledge is well defended by the autistic community specially because the process of getting a formal diagnosis is quite expensive and not everyone can afford it, but still they wanna feel good about themselves. For us, if something makes sense to the person and you feel as if "autistic" is a label that fits, we'll support them fully, with or without formal diagnosis (also because as we've just read on many athena's posts, not even having a formal diagnosis will make someone believe in you lol. So what matters the most is if the label makes sense to them)
Yes, as this woman says, specifically in the second video I think, normally when someone commits to that diagnosis they have done months of research and the doctor just signs off on it basically: https://youtu.be/-__7_SnPPwU?si=BcESGwYNx4k0KnDn
It makes me wonder if I did want a diagnosis (I don't) If I could just look at it myself and pick my diagnosis and the doctor signs off on it!
These things are useful to know in general I think. I was watching a video from Orion Kelly and he said that a lot of times people only develop strong symptoms when the pressures of life reveal them. So it was only revealed for him once he had a job, wife and kid and things started going crazy. Before that he was coping fine. Something to look forward to!
Well, as I said I think the main reason to reveal it is if people need accommodations from their workplace.
I do not have any particular reason to reveal my 'unusualness' once I have properly masked because, it simply doesn't help me. But I do think the way neurotypicals think you need to be able to have a term to explain it to them. Even if it is a "maybe" term. The thing is with NT's is if they mostly have had no reason in life to explore the mental health topic, they simply don't have any frame of reference if you need to explain it to them for some reason. And if someone is close to an NT they will need to explain it at some point.
And then there are some ND's that want a name for what it is just because that's how they are.
This is why it might be needed to bring in a term to help describe it to them. Once an NT has processed 'This person has this condition' it is real to them but 'This person experiences this symptom' can't be processed. When my medical situation was very bad and I showed pretty clear schizoid symptoms, explaining this to family really made them a lot happier. They need to bridge the gap between the NT behaviours people are meant to show and what they perceive. Now the physical medical situation has changed and so have my behaviours (my anxiety around others simply stopped existing!) which leads me a bit out of the sticks in terms of finding ways to explain these things if they come up.
Oh Athena, you can’t possibly be a psychopath if you feel so strongly about this! /s
Jokes aside, internet randos who think they know better are annoying but the medical gaslighting cases like the one you mentioned can be outright dangerous, or even lethal, unfortunately...
Yeah.. my husband told me the story about his colleague's wife who went to the doctor about chest pain and he said it was anxiety. She went home but came back hours later with burning fever, it turns out it was bacterial infection in the heart.
She is alive but didn't get a full recovery.
I think a doctor should never assume it's psychological unless the patient is infamous for doing that. Order some exams and see what you get.
this was really helpful. i didn't realize so many of the judgments that i have gotten from people even had a source like this; for the longest time i just thought i was crazy. more recently, i have come to believe they are actually untrue and i don't understand their reasoning because i'm not like that. ty for the insight.
also, the surgery with the butter knife article - did you come up with that or is this actually something that exists? lmao💀
I think Athena showed her lack of education though in not knowing that the reason towers collapse is that there are not enough bunnies in the foundation.
I frequent a social media platform where I see many people who call someone a psychopath. I don’t know if they are just saying it to feel better or if they knew what psychopathy is they’d actually put the correct diagnosis to who they’re speaking of. I engaged in suggesting that perhaps they meant sociopath and explained what the difference between the two were.
No one challenged my synopsis 😳
I gathered that perhaps they thought I was a psychopath & freaked out or they actually agreed as they finally wrapped their head around it. Don’t know.
I’m entertained by watching politics and can usually call out bs when I see it & people seem to get my point when I point out the logical obvious in people. My therapist says “Doesn’t that drive you nuts watching it” ? I told her no. I almost view them as strange characters almost soap opera like because one side is so extreme & the other side is usually sound reasoning with facts to back their claims. When everyone was convinced that Trump or Putin had to be psychopaths because of they’re behavior I’d comment these are two power hungry people that enjoy watching sadistic behavior, like to brag & be seen as big and powerful. Ok so they’ve actually seen Narcissism and from they’re backgrounds they’re more than likely are on the sociopathic spectrum. They both had a shitty childhoods and they are hyper aware about what they look like because life as they know is all about them.
I saw this drama growing up.
Why do they argue or challenge you is up for debate but I have no idea why someone would actually want to be a psychopath. I perceive it as being a huge challenge, exhausting dealing with people and painfully boring. I’m never bored as I have too much to keep me occupied.
But I did get a small faux taste of what it might be like after having a concussion. I was told I had a personality change, that I talked slower and there was a lack of enjoyment in my eyes. But logically I knew I couldn’t retrieve words to have a conversation and apparently I told my doctor that I didn’t give a rats ass about anything or anyone and I was bored. It was bizarre to not have a single thought or idea in my head. Before my mind was creative & full of ideas.
As time passed I did get my full emotional skill set back but my memory was full of gaps. I didn’t talk much as my fluidity of thought was not there. I’d forget what happened the day before and not remember talking or seeing people when they’d remind me.
I thought shit now I know what getting your bell rung really means.
2.5 years later I found I have no memory of the accident & still have memory issues. My doctor told me that I have permanent vestibular brain damage and I will have memory issues in the future. Ok I get that. Today I can only describe as if I were a computer and that perhaps someone wiped out data randomly & continues to. it’s not fun.
I’d like to know how you remember something or code it to remember something important. I had a strong interest prior to the concussion in going back to school to learn nuclear medicine as I find it interesting. However at this time I don’t know how to retain the knowledge to pass the courses and get a degree.
Any advice or system practices that you could suggest would be greatly appreciated.
I don't think that I would have very useful tips for remembering things because I simply tell myself that something is important and therefore I need to remember it.
However, I did ask someone that I know that had a significant head injury and what he did to help himself. He says that he remember dates by associating them with other significant dates that are in the part of his memory that wasn't affected. He also suggested this:
Wonderful article for which I must thank you, Athena. Now I wonder if I am a psychopath or just leaning in. I have some of the measurements that fit, like tiny amygdala and undersized preoptic frontal cortex, but am I? I thought I am, but now not so certain. Ah well, the idea that I lack knowledge is one of the most delighting things that can happen to me, inspiring more research or the design of research projects, so if I have a lot of arrogance, it hides itself better than I can detect.
I wish I could offer insight into what was discussed rather than just a personal reaction, but that may take some contemplation. I remain your attuned follower.
There are endless resources on line for autistic people seeking to understand themselves but psychopathy is still at an apparently earlier stage of not actually understanding the condition. Not being able to separate it from the mythology.
The comment left by this 16 years old girl is off putting. I doubt if all of it is really true. I am not sure what's wrong with her, but definitely it is not psychopathy. Even those whom are ill informed about it can see through it. On the other hand, I can see why she might believe herself to be a psychopath who has to much time on her. There was a brief study done on teenagers who witnessed the pandemic and they deduced that the average teenager at that time, exhibited "psychopathic" and narcisstic traits than teenagers who grew up in normal stable times. I think it doesn't take much to believe it (psychopathy as the vast majority believes what it is) do you see those trends on tiktok? The content it had? Kids inflicting emotional or physical pain just for the views and likes or putting themsleevs in situations that make them lose respect. What I am saying is that -which is related to how the brain is not formed yet- unsupervised teenagers like this child who see people as puppets or see nothing but themselves, will outgrew it. Albeit, in different ways.
Indeed, I doubt it as well. They seemed to try to be hitting all the myths in the most extreme way they could imagine without being absolutely ridiculous. Then the notion that they might be seen as an edgelord seemed out of the blue as well.
I skipped it on first reading but went back just now.
"I feel nothing for them. I fantasise a lot only with particular people I find attractive, but get bored quickly once I see their “humanity” and “get inside of them” when I was younger I developed a foolish relationship which was more like an internet relationship."
Idealisation and devaluation? I think borderline calls it something else.
"I had sexual expierience with my grandpa, not a intercourse, when I was seven, from there I got into sexual things and materials."
Assuming this person can experience trauma then this is trauma. We don't know any more of what her family dynamic is like but we don't know if she brought this up with her parents and they ignored her as sometimes happens. If she is living with parents that ignored this and she does not feel safe around them then she will not show them her vulnerability; because she is surrounded by predators.
The statistics on child sexual abuse are far higher than one would expect. A child of a single mother is thirty times more likely to be raped and single mothers have grown massively since the advent of the welfare state. I believe, every part of that sentence, is explicitly by design.
I refuse to believe that this child is saying the full truth. For a 16 years old, she is very articulate. I also refuse to believe that her parents are not involved. She mentioned them few times, when they scolded her about harming animals.
I am not saying abuse in children is non existent, it is, but this girl is not traumatized by her questionable relationship with her grandfather. When you have any type of trauma, the last thing you talk about, is the exact cause of your misery (whether you realize it, or not)
So this is a person who has likely consumed questionable material, either documentaries , books or even Netflix shows, and, in respect to what happened to those individuals in those documentaries, she found it amusing to apply those scenarios and scenes in her fantasy world.
I do not feel comfortable making further, even very light, theorising as to the specific individual. I would say that of those I have known with abuse in their pasts (with which significantly negative behaviour was evident) they did indeed hide their situations. But there are always exceptions to a general rule.
My thoughts are that, to my thinking, the general toxicity in the society would be due to things like this, more than to Tik tok.
I didn't say that tiktok is culprit as to why there is a general toxicity in our societies.
It is one piece of the puzzle, including the pandemic lockdown, which is why I mentioned tiktok in the first place.
Tiktok is the Number.1 App that been officially banned in many countries including many states, due it's negative nature. When did you hear that people got arrested for promoting sex trafficking on tiktok?
The producers in Sillicon Valley, would be happy to tell you that their algorithms are designed to cause controversy, to psychologically manipulate you, decrease your attention span, give instant false gratification. All this is a recipe of disaster to a developing brain.
Yet again another great showing of your understanding in the depth of the human mind... :o Never commented before but I had some questions I wanted to ask, though I have nothing I could trade in exchange. Hilariously this is quite similar to someone saying "I'll pay you in exposure" to an artist, but I'll try regardless. :P This story just made me realize how badly I need to ask these questions in the first place.
Though I am no psychopath myself, and definitely do not claim to know much about their inner workings, I've never innately seen them as Bad People, and you definitely show how they're just as human as anyone else! Just a little different! I've been writing a story where one of the main characters IS a psychopath, same as his father, and your blog has been helping a lot in getting an understanding of all the intricacies of that and how to write him effectively. (While, of course, still doing my best to make him lovable as to dispel the myths of psychopaths. This mostly goes into making a very snarky and low-patience for other people personality that is evidently Very Funny to outside observers with their comments.)
BUT, it's been hard to fill in some gaps, (and I've DEFINITELY slipped up in ways I regret in a story that's being written With a Second Person (as in I can't really Go Back and edit it) when it comes to Fear and Grief.) and I'd really love to try and make sure I'm portraying him as Accurately as possible! So, if you'd give me the time of day to answer these questions, I'll cut to the chase. And, if it'd be easier for you, you can absolutely point me to any previous articles you've made that I can read up on to answer any of my questions, just to save you the time typing. I have no issue with that as I honestly haven't been reading very long, I've only gone through maybe 10 or so posts, ALL of which are beautifully written.
1. Love. You have a partner, and while I'm *told* Psychopaths are incapable of Feeling love, I'm alsoo told they can still desire to Be Loved, and that's definitely an interesting one. But to have a partner to be loved by you'd have to Want to be around the person in the first place, so essentially, what made you Want to stick around them? What do you get out of it? And, if they died, how would you take that?
2. While you are incapable of feeling Fear or the threat of your life, what about Anxiety or Dread? Particularly about things you didn't want to do? Are you able to identify with the feeling of your stomach twisting in knots, or is that too linked emotionally to be felt by even a lower spectrum Psychopath such as yourself? Sort of linked, how would a psychopath react to something such as Sexual Assault or unwanted Sexual Acts in general?
3. I've run myself into a hole where at the start of the story I wrote that his father desired to burn the world due to the grief caused by losing his wife, which can't happen because no grief, so this was easily substituted with just this... Hole left when her overwhelming love as a person was stripped from him so suddenly. (The want to Be Loved, fulfilled to such a degree that when it was gone, it was Crushing; how to function without that aid having been forgotten.) But I doooon't think I'm in the right place for this...? I just get the general sense I'm doing Everything wrong, and was hoping you might have an idea of some sort of alternative. I just know everything got Bad for that family when she died, and I Have to find a reasoning for that because I Cannot fully retcon it this far in.
Once again, thank you for just putting in the time to read such an overwhelmingly large comment! And I'm sorry I had to write so much! As well, I'd be very grateful for your input, even if I cannot give much transactionally. I know it is asking much from someone wired like you are, and that can be daunting. Have a lovely day!
"Love. You have a partner, and while I'm *told* Psychopaths are incapable of Feeling love, I'm also told they can still desire to Be Loved, and that's definitely an interesting one. But to have a partner to be loved by you'd have to Want to be around the person in the first place, so essentially, what made you Want to stick around them? What do you get out of it? And, if they died, how would you take that?"
Psychopaths do not crave or desire love. We literally have no concept of what it is, cannot feel envy, loneliness, or any of the other things that neurotypicals do feel that makes them "want love". I have a number of posts addressing love and psychopathy.
We do not feel anxiety or dread. None of what you write there is relatable to a psychopath.
I've run myself into a hole where at the start of the story I wrote that his father desired to burn the world due to the grief caused by losing his wife, which can't happen because no grief, so this was easily substituted with just this... Hole left when her overwhelming love as a person was stripped from him so suddenly. (The want to Be Loved, fulfilled to such a degree that when it was gone, it was Crushing; how to function without that aid having been forgotten.) But I doooon't think I'm in the right place for this...? I just get the general sense I'm doing Everything wrong, and was hoping you might have an idea of some sort of alternative. I just know everything got Bad for that family when she died, and I Have to find a reasoning for that because I Cannot fully retcon it this far in"
This paragraph is why I do not help neurotypicals write about psychopathy. You are approaching it from such an incorrect perspective your characters are entirely removed from how psychopathy functions. I specifically wrote about this here:
I definitely understood that I had completely approached it from the Wrooong angle at the *Start,* but that was before I had begun my research. Though you're most likely correct that I will never understand properly.
My apologies, I guess? It is difficult to tell if that's just how you talk, or if you are being passive aggressive with me for trying to learn. Either way, my bad.
You write: Psychopaths are immune to addiction, and there isn’t any ambiguity in what addiction is.
LOL. I can't tell if that applies to me or not. It seems for the moment, addiction is, for me, very ambiguous. I can't tell you if I am addicted or not!! Hahaha.
Sex, alcohol, illegal drugs, legal drugs, pornography? At one time or another, I said I was addicted to them all!!
Thank you for making your work available. I hope you continue for a very long time.
I’m interested in this too.
Narcissists require narcissistic supply, or ‘fuel’ would be a better way to describe it. To me, this is an addiction. The narcissist is absolutely driven in his pursuit of fuel, subconsciously it is a requirement for survival similar to the requirement for food and water. So would this be another reason that psychopathy and NPD can’t co exist within the same person? Narcissists are addicted to fuel and psychopaths would never experience this addiction?
If there is an article where you break down the concept of the narcissistic psychopath I’d appreciate it if you could direct me to it please Athena. Also how is it that psychopaths are immune to the chemical side of addiction? I can understand them not having the emotional side to addiction, but chemical too?
Back after my little summer social media pause. Interesting article, I can understand the frustration at having your motivation for writing about psychopathy repeatedly questioned and invalidated by people who don’t even bother to question openly and honestly. Lack of understanding is forgivable given the quagmire of mixed terminology out there about psychopathy, sociopathy and ASPD. Refusal to understand is something very different.
I spoke about NPD versus psychopathy here:
https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/narcissist-or-psychopath
https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/narcissist-versus-psychopath
https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/the-confidence-of-a-psychopath
I don't really have a lot to say about the notion of a narcissistic psychopath because I find the term misleading and not particularly valuable as a term.
Thank you Athena. Having those three articles back to back helps. It is a misleading term but it seems to be repeated over and over, so I keep trying to reconcile how NPD and psychopathy could exist together. I always end up at the same conclusion, NPD and psychopathy are fundamentally different, they couldn’t exist together. Often what people are referring to I think is a Malignant Narcissist but labelling this ‘Narcissistic Psychopath’.
The term narcissistic psychopath crops up so often though, I keep questioning again if there isn’t something in it. Then I’m back in the same loop again!
I get that, it is a common misconception and subject rife with proliferated misinformation
If you look in DSM-5, you will find the term Antisocial Personality Disorder, and there may be some discussion within that description of psychopathy and sociopathy, but for purposes of diagnosis, it is ASPD. Sociopathy and NPD may indeed have comorbidity, and the DSM leaves room for conflating psychopathy and sociopathy.
Narcissistic Personality Disorder is my specialty. I teach it, treat it, publish articles about it in peer reviewed journals. There is no such thing as a narcissistic psychopath. Pretty much all these diagnoses have in common is a lack of emotional empathy and self-centeredness. Sometimes they can appear similar. I will leave it Athena to explain the differences between these diagnoses.
Athena was very helpful to me in getting me motivated to tighten up my diagnostic language and distinguish sociopathy from psychopathy. You can have a sociopathic narcissist.
Could you share some literature on sociopathy?
I have one post about the differences between psychopathy and sociopathy, which you can find here:
https://athenawalker.substack.com/p/psychopathy-and-sociopathy
I don't write a great deal on it because I am not a sociopath, so I would prefer they speak for themselves as they are far better informed about how things are for them
Hi Elinor,
Interesting that you can have a sociopathic narcissist. I wonder if that isn’t confusing me too. When you say sociopathic narcissist do you mean someone who is a sociopath who also has NPD? Or, do you mean someone who has NPD who also has sociopathic traits? Sorry for my confusion.
I'd just add my bit to what an addiction is.
It is based on a dopaminergic reward system. Our brain consolidates past experiences into memory with neurotransmitter dopamine, also known as learning. Dopamine release is normally experienced as a pleasure. A specific amount of dopamine is release upon executing an action and it serves us as a reward, a motivation if you will. It motivates us to engage in behaviour that will maximize our contact with a positive stimuli. It makes us want to repeatedly do something again and again.
Addiction comes in play when we become dependent on a particular stimuli for that dopamine kick. It is arguable where exactly the threshold is but it might onset when consequences of a behaviour become counterproductive and harmful. Bear in mind that this is a linear process and an addiction is a discrete term.
I would speculate that psychopaths might have altered brain structures involved in the said system. Amygdala and prefrontal cortex seem to be two of them.
Hi K8,
Thank you for this, I found it very helpful.
Excellent
Indeed we do
Hey!! Very interesting comment and aspects!!
Refusal to understand IS very different!! So true.
Hi Tim,
Given my last two comments and level of confusion it might be better for me to refuse to understand haha!
Hahaha!! I just saw this!!! Yes!!!! Nancy Reagan advice: Just say "NO" -to understand!!!
I'll say one thing: Those here on Athena's sub stack are looking at our own selves: Some, like you, fearlessly.
“Don’t be a Nancy.” I think that might catch on!
Yes, definitely something I like about this space, people really looking to broaden their perspectives on the subjects up for discussion. Thank you too for your kind words of encouragement Tim.
You are welcome!!
Yes, I agree with you so much: Athena's work causes (compels?) each of us to "broaden"!! Broaden in a good way. About how our brains work and why we do what we do.
If Shakespeare were alive today, he would be on this substack learning from Athena.
My psychopath friend uses most illicit drugs (just not heroin) at irregular intervals, sometimes everyday and sometimes not at all but she was just telling me yesterday that she thinks she can’t be addicted. I thought that was interesting, and since I find her very self-aware, I didn’t question her. She does have a code, though. She only uses the hard stuff, like cocaine, when she feels aligned with herself. She also goes through times when she uses drugs often, but never displays what I would consider to be addict behavior and she just as quickly gets completely sober if she wants to. I’m not saying your experience is wrong. I am also curious if you had physical addiction (as in you experienced withdrawal symptoms), but possibly not emotional addiction? My friend has experienced physical addiction, but I have been around plenty of addicts and can say that I have never seen emotional addiction from her. That seems to be the real part of the addiction that is being talked about here, I think. That is why my friend won’t use heroin. She knows that the physical addiction is intense and doesn’t want to go there. Does that track for you, I wonder?
Hey Tifani: Is your question directed to me (it came up on my notices as directed to me) or Athena who is Billion times more insightful and informative than me: I hope she also replies to you. Anything I say is likely dangerous or silly.
Your friend says she "can't be addicted". But doesn't use heroin.
She sounds really aware and very smart. Probably a real live wire and fun person to be around.
In NA and AA, they write in the Big Blue Book, about a unicorn they call the "periodic": Irregular interval use "maybe" like your friend.
Bill W and the other founders were NOT periodics but felt they knew about them. they said these "addicts" were the hardest to help. They write about it quite a bit for the rare beings of "periodic".
Big Book has a section of stories, about individual addicts, I find really interesting. I think even Abraham Lincoln is quoted there. You might enjoy that part. Maybe 30 stories?
Many years ago, I did attend AA for a couple months. I was not really accepted. I was a reject from "AA"- haha.
They said I was not an alcoholic and to come back when I had a problem. I did learn alot and enjoyed the experience (in CA, with lots of options, every single day different options) Maybe in another state it would suck?
As best I could figure, maybe I was a "periodic" in their nomenclature.
Prior to that, I had a very bad experience, where I drove on the 405 Freeway, in a busy time, at high speed, where I was Sh*tfaced. I would like to say I am embarrased about that or humilated, but I am not. I just don't want to ever do that again. So I made the changes to not do that, to never do that and I haven't again. I have not driven even with one beer or one drink, since. I just don't do it any more.
"..completely sober"- I know what you mean by this: you mean actively under the influence. Right. I think Athena has to help me here: A pyschopath will look beyond that (I think) Yes, a person gets completely sober, yet various illegal hard drugs diminish the quality and performance of their system. You know? There is a cost.
I don't think pyschopaths make those tradeoffs, but I don't know.
I don't experience physical withdrawal. I don't quite know what you mean by emotional addiction. I seem to lose interest more than anything else.
Maybe opportunity as well: the first girl I lived with had never done LSD and had sex! I was quite surprized by that. For about 9 months, we enjoyed all sorts of pyschedelic drugs in our sex. When I think of that time, I think of her and the scent of jasmine that grew at our place, not the drugs.
I don't "miss" her, but I do think about her in the context of me growing up and learning lessons and such things. I don't "miss" the jasmine, but every time I smell it, I think of that time and place. And I don't "miss" the drugs.
But if you bring some over? And want to do some? For sure!!! hehehe. Sex too? LOL. Sure lets have a good time, but I don't seek that out. I'm not going to buy any or ask for some.
I can't imagine this is helpful to you. But let me hit post right now before I delete the whole thing!!@ Best wishes! I'm certain Athena has far more insightful and sensible things to say than my babble of ancient and historical events!!
No, this is perfect!!! I definitely meant to respond to you. I didn’t ask to get information and then go ‘splain to my bestie about herself. I am best friends with a psychopath because she expands my world in beautiful ways. When I responded to you, I was looking for this exact expansion of insight.
I could be wrong, but when you talk about your addiction, it sounds less like addiction to me and more about drug-induced impulse control issues that make it super wise for you to not partake. Emotional addiction is when people are using drugs to emotionally cope with trauma and keep going back to the drugs because they can’t emotionally cope with life. Maybe that is a poor explanation, but that is how I understand it. Yes, it also leads to poor behaviors and desperation to return to drugs to the point that people then engage in addictive behavior such as betraying people that they want a relationship with. While your drug-induced behaviors were life-threatening, they seemed to me like they weren’t brought on by a downward spiral of needing to cope with life. That would be emotional addiction. An emotionally addicted person also couldn’t have just walked away from drug use like that. So, I think you answered my question, provided you are also a psychopath and provided I understand and interpreted correctly.
Whether I got it wrong or right, I really appreciate the time you took in your thorough response. It was exactly the insight I wanted.
Hi Tifani! Thanks for the many kind words! Happy to serve you!!
I hope to see you again. I learned alot from your posts and believe AA/NA use the same definition as you of emotional addiction. Deftly done!
Best wishes.
.
Just learning Substack so I got your response notification, but didn’t find it until today.
I was never a counselor, but took enough addiction counseling classes to have the certificate if I had done the internship in college. So, yeah, they are the same. I actually went to AA, NA, AL-Anon meetings as part of the education, also. That is how I also know about the difference between emotional addiction and physical dependency. Emotional dependency is the reason people need to go to meetings because that is almost always the reason people return to addiction. Addiction is just a coping mechanism for pain that we don’t have better coping skills for. People who feel accepted and connected to others don’t tend to struggle with addiction. But, imagine if a person’s brain was wired to not need approval of others, like, say, a psychopath. What would they even need to medicate besides boredom? Boredom is easier to deal with than someone who stops numbing their trauma monsters through drugs and then find all of their monsters out of Pandora’s trauma box to tell them how useless they are. Those monsters can drive a person to suicide if they don’t self-medicate somehow.
That is why I think Athena is so good at making the distinction between a psychopath and a narcissist. A narcissist does feel the shame. They just suppress perspective-taking by convincing themselves that others would do the same to them if they had the chance. A psychopath is genetic wiring that alters the brain’s reward system and keeps cognitive empathy, but not emotional empathy. My psychopath friend found out through a brain scan for something else that she has this wiring. If there was still a DSM criteria for psychopathy, she would not meet the diagnostic criteria behaviorally. Because she is an emotionally healthy, genetic-only psychopath, her brain wiring is something I find to be incredibly insightful and usually actually more moral than my own. Anyway, I’m rambling because I have ADHD and I’m fascinated by all of this, but she tells me the truth about her experiences and it seems very clear to me that she can’t have emotional addiction. I have seen her lose very important people to her, but she’s shrugged, told me how sad it was for them that they couldn’t see themselves in order to coexist with her, and she’s moved on. There was some sadness, but nothing that would keep her from going off to work like nothing is wrong. I have no illusions that the same wouldn’t go for me, but I have come to see that level of friendship as quite healthy. We choose each other to talk to for hours, not because we are emotionally enmeshed, but because, in that moment, the other is the one we want to be with and we enrich each other’s lives. There are no roles or social expectations to this friendship, no hurt feelings, only honesty. I’ve applied this way of existing with my very traumatized partner who has endured childhood slavery and survived the Rwandan genocide. It has brought us to a really healthy way of coexisting because social expectations trigger him and drain me.
So, my ADHD rambling or stream of consciousness or whatever is really just to say that her way of engaging with people feels healthy to me and has no elements of the social qualities that create emotional addiction. In fact, those social elements can even be healing to anybody if they are wise enough to learn from a person who is genetically a psychopath.
Just my perspective.
Thanks for such a great post!! I really enjoyed reading just now. It is about 1 am and I am drinking coffee at my home in Mexico.
You posit "Self Medication as an alternative to suicide". I'm hoping this isn't so common an idea, that I shouldn't choose now to really experience this! Wow. It feels really great you write that!! I like this very much. it has the broad strokes, big picture power that is so helpful.
Shame: As far as I know, I do not personally feel shame or ashamed or "you should be ashamed of yourself"- hehehe.
Suppress: I could just be in denial, but I don't think I suppress any thing or any emotion. I don't have to suppress them, at least, I don't think. Maybe I am just so good at it, I do it automatically on some deep level? I don't know.
Shame and such things to suppress are "bad" things, so pardon me, if I do not present illustrations.
Boredom: I don't experience this. Several times my love interests comment on this: they say that I make even going grocery shopping fun. But it is equally true I am never under time pressure. Without time, who can have fun? If I go to get my tires changed, or do laundry, I am still up for a good time. I still want to engage with the people around me.
Morals: I know about these things. It often involves ideas imposed by others. Good luck with that. I often choose to comply, but I do not accept judgments of others readily. If you are my friend, and you are with me, I will give my life to physically protect you. I would not expect or even think you would thank me for doing so. It is my way and really doesn't involve you.
Lose people: If I write you off, you are gone without a trace and no sadness. If we just lose contact, I will keep you until I see you again.
Now: I saved this: cognitive empathy for the end: Athena writes on this extensive. She is an expert and I defer to her. She knows the terms and what they mean and how to apply them.
It appears some people say "cognitive empathy includes (me) knowing how the other person feels": how they actually in fact: Feel.
No. I have not one clue as to how you feel. To me, I can't tell if you feel different than Athena.
I have no consideration or insight into "feelings" no matter who has them.
It is hard for me to write and I often write then delete several times: I can not tell how my words might be recieved. I often find them taken for offense. I often find my "best" writing engenders no response.
I do enjoy the experience of writing, even when I delete, even several times. You see? That is pretty normal, very NT. And not at all "anti social". -smiles-
thanks again for your kind and insightful post. I really enjoyed reading and making my reply.
I can understand the frustration of having ill informed intrusive busybodies claim to know more about you than yourself.
Some people in the comments sections of my posts take exception to the logical and professional way I write and accuse me of lacking compassion and then proceed to tell me about my supposed flaws as a human being and a therapist. Then after they insult me (LOL), they end by giving me the most insulting diagnosis they can think of: No, not a psychopath, they tell me I am a Narcissist.
If someone decides that they understand me and want to share their insights about me, they should be happy that I don’t care to tell them my insights about them.
I am not sure why you get so much flack. I know you are a psychopath but I really don’t get why people care so much. So what. You write good articles, you give lots of valid information, you are polite.
And I agree about those scans of the internet coming up with mistaken information.
Just about everyone on Quora who talks about IQ gets it wrong. They give a number like 250. The WAIS (Perhaps the best most taught IQ test ever that takes most of a day to administer) only goes up to a theoretical 150-160. Real IQ testers can only compare scores from different tests by changing them into percentiles. That is what MENSA does. They accept everyone who scores in the top 2 % or better.
So I did an internet search and found all these IQ charts showing IQs going up to numbers 250 or over without specifying which test. Then I looked up the articles on smartest people ever. Again, every article I saw listed a numerical IQ without the equivalent percentile it represented or the name of the test. I started to write a post for Quora explaining this but ….not sure it is worth it. Someone claiming to be a genius because they claim they have an IQ of 250 is the IQ version of being an Edge Lord. Sigh….
All just my thoughts.
I think for some men psychopath is a very desireable diagnosis in a sense. A lot of "alpha bros" are advertising that men should adopt traits that are basically psychopathic.
The thing is with any of these things is that if someone can state that they are something, and get status from that, then some will find that desireable. Such as the word 'empath' is a good example. Or high IQ. Then a lot of people will do it then fight over the definition to define themselves that way. In the animal world status still equals resources.
With psychopathy. There are a lot of men who... to quote a gym guy I follow on twitter... "Think they are 4000 times better fighters than they are". There are a lot of guys who have been pushed down on the animal heirarchy for some reason and want to have a justification as to why they are "secretly" tougher than their oppressors. Or perhaps just need some claim to fame after something of the child abuse variety has destroyed their inner worlds.
The trouble is is that if you are pretending to be something and then someone comes along that really is that thing and takes the status away from you, then that is going to cause rage.
I find the notion of being psychopathic as a status symbol rather silly. If a person wants to mold and hone their personality into the best version of themselves that they can be, they should do that. They should be aspiring to actually useful traits, and psychopathic traits as a whole are neither useful nor are they useless. It all depends on how they are used, which is true of all traits.
If the person simply determines what is important and valuable to them in terms of who they want to be, and then work to become that person, there is nothing to be taken away. There aren't any shortcuts to being a decent, strong, or high-value person. It takes actually looking at who you are, who you wish you were, and the steps in between that need to be taken to get to where you want to get to.
This might be over simplistic, but in terms of psychopathy as a status symbol I think it falls under the same umbrella as ‘Sex Sells’. It’s a concept people are fascinated by thanks largely to incorrect depictions in film. Psychopathy was glamourised by Hollywood and breaking the Hollywood version down with the truth is likely going to take considerable time and effort. People are captivated by a myth and whilst they are, there will be no shortage of online wannabe bad boys morphing into what they believe psychopathy to be.
I'm not sure which angle you are asking about here? Is this explanation/ reflection on the thought processes of such people or something else?:
Here is a reddit thread on one of the best played "sociopaths" on TV, in my view:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheExpanse/comments/15uzghh/the_moment_amos_became_my_favorite/
Notice how the people are salivating over him? For me this is a weird thing to say like, why would you like someone specifically because of fighting style? But you can see the mindset here.
I was not able to find the usual crap on twitter since even one post like that and I unfollow. Tate seems to have hit a genuinely positive spiritual place. But here is one that is reaching in that direction without going there:
"You can't fall for manipulation when you don't give a fuck.
Nobody can fool you if you don't give them any attention to begin with.
Stop caring. It's that simple.
We ball."
I think it's partly difficult to find more messed up takes because the culture has shifted a lot. But I have seen a lot of posts like 'As a man you never express your feelings' and all that kind of thing.
But I did find one though:
https://twitter.com/PUA_DATING_TIPS/status/1704391353726325173
Like I said, or alluded to, there are a lot of guys who like to think they are super tough and a psychopath, in relation to the mainstream adaption of that, (like Amos) is the manifestation of that. Rather like how women have an emotional conviction they are right when they are telling stories without context and so they label their ex partner a "narcissist" to quickly achieve the preferred emotional reaction from others.
Furthermore, the reason this "tough guy" culture exists anyway is because women are profoundly attracted to it. This is all said in jest but, it is basically true. Also from twitter, apologies for the lewdness:
Person 1: TOP 3 Pussy Drying topics
1. Video Games
2. Bitcoin
3. Your Job
She wants to fuck-stop boring the shit out of her
Person 2: So you're suggesting to quit your job?
Wtf..
Person 1: Don’t quit your boring ass job.
Just tell her you recently got out of jail and are unemployed
Person 3: This works. I told a girl I was on the run. Her response “ I love criminals”
Here's another of that variety: https://twitter.com/greentexts_bot/status/1697968065462378795
I don't quite know where you are going with the second half of your post. I do not know what it is that makes you think most people are pursuing virtue in their lives.
The second half of my post ties together with the first half. Speaking about the one aspect feeding the other aspect.
OK, the reason I said that was you changed the prefix from 'they', to 'you'; so I wondered if you were trying to comment or ask anything beyond the general thoughts on this type of potential psychology. But I don't think that's likely otherwise I would have answered that.
I will go back and edit for clarity
Oh yes, I know just what you mean about the IQ section of Quora, and I don't have the training that you do to have more insight to how incorrect the things talked about there are. I simply cannot engage with that section or the people that are heavily focused on the topic. I simply cannot be bothered dealing with them. There was a huge overlap between them and the psychopathy section a number of years ago. I passed on so many questions wanting to know my IQ. I don't know it, I don't care to know it, nor can I comprehend why it would matter to anyone else.
Of course, there were a lot of edge lord "psychopaths" that claimed to be in the high 190s for IQ as well. They also would have a whole slew of other things that made them extraordinary. Now, the IQ thing has fallen off some, but it is still one of the markers that seem to be indelibly linked to those seeking attention.
This article is a really good one. I have realised recently that I have slowly stopped being interested in your articles for the "psychopathy" angle and become actually interested in your articles for their output.
Yeah, I think arrogance is a very difficult demon to slay. There are some that are just immune to it . For whatever reason (Perhaps out of a legitimate desire for virtue?). But most are not and many, many of the problems we encounter in every day life are from people that haven't self reflected, and so arrogance kind of takes over.
What is weird about it is that, like all "sins" so to speak. Behaviours done out of arrogance, or the need to be right, seem to manifest even when they go against the persons own survival instincts. I.e. they will lose a close friend due to arrogance they can't really afford to lose. Or get in a work squabble due to arrogance, and try and prove themselves right against someone that is really valuable. Perhaps many time more skilled than the perpetrator.
Arrogance for me was kind of caught up in a delusional sense in my youth. Arrogance is extremely costly, because previously, if I have been arrogant, I will believe delusional ideas that I can dismiss in a healthy state. But have run away from me with very bad effects when I was younger. This is one of the benefits to me of being very religious. When I get one of the delusional ideas about being super smart or starting my own religion or something. I passionately pray and engage in Christian material until it subsides. That 'Jesus' takes the wheel so to speak.
Before, when I came across the non-stigmatized information about psychopaths (thank you, btw. You were one of the people that I learn what psychopathy really is from), I was like "hey, that makes sense to me". But sometimes I would think "hm, am I trying to be an edgelord or is it because those experiences really click something in my mind and for the first time in forever something makes sense as to how I experience the world?"
I have always felt as an outsider my whole life, not in a bad way tho. It was always like "I don't quite understand what's going on around me and how I don't truly fit in, but why?". That's when years later I got my autism level 1 of support diagnosis and everything made sense. I was like "I knew I was different".
So nowadays, I'm sure that when I say here on the comment sections that I relate to some psychopathic experiences you share with us, It's not me trying to be an edgelord or call attention lol. It's one more way of confirming my way of seeing and experiencing the world. I don't know if it's for the fact that psychopathy and autism are neurodivergencies, so naturally our brains will experience the world differently from neurotypicals.
Yes, I agree very much about the tendency to mix these things up and the struggle for some sort of self diagnosis for self knowledge. I have heard self diagnosis defended well by autists.
So much of what Athena says so directly correlates with my experience. It is eerie. Reading her posts is like reading someone making manifest the thoughts in my own mind. Even in this post itself, her taking peoples responses to her and showing it but not out of ego but rather like someone might demonstrate how a car works or something. Is a behaviour I also have and one I have very rarely observed in others. I often wonder if people will think I am just personally upset about whatever it is but no, I actually want to show the behaviour and I think that is a good way to do it. Almost every article has a correlation like this.
Psychopathy seemed likely a valid self diagnosis when I came on here. ESPECIALLY when Athena said part of her diagnosis was when she was told to write and re write about an experience, and what they were looking for is "emotional language". I know for myself that it doesn't matter how many times I was asked to write and re- write something, emotional language would never be a feature. I have also carefully observed the difference between me and other men I know, to be sure that it is not just the tendency of men in general.
But psychopathy fell from favour as my preferred self diagnostic label for if it is ever needed. I really can't get the "vibe" of autism, I don't have routines, stim, have meltdowns or have most of the symptoms - I actually enjoy autistic content creators and imagine knowledge of the condition will generally serve me well socially. So I attached to another label (schizoid); it fits, but in truth, I have no idea. I think it's best to just work on symptoms where the label itself is not an issue, and the issues are not of a sort that others have to give accommodations, and the problem doesn't have to be explained to others.
I do have a religious leaning and I do think that the God has a plan for such things. I think these issues have come up for a reason which will be relevant to my future.
Yes!! Completely! The self diagnosis as a form of self knowledge is well defended by the autistic community specially because the process of getting a formal diagnosis is quite expensive and not everyone can afford it, but still they wanna feel good about themselves. For us, if something makes sense to the person and you feel as if "autistic" is a label that fits, we'll support them fully, with or without formal diagnosis (also because as we've just read on many athena's posts, not even having a formal diagnosis will make someone believe in you lol. So what matters the most is if the label makes sense to them)
Yes, as this woman says, specifically in the second video I think, normally when someone commits to that diagnosis they have done months of research and the doctor just signs off on it basically: https://youtu.be/-__7_SnPPwU?si=BcESGwYNx4k0KnDn
It makes me wonder if I did want a diagnosis (I don't) If I could just look at it myself and pick my diagnosis and the doctor signs off on it!
These things are useful to know in general I think. I was watching a video from Orion Kelly and he said that a lot of times people only develop strong symptoms when the pressures of life reveal them. So it was only revealed for him once he had a job, wife and kid and things started going crazy. Before that he was coping fine. Something to look forward to!
So long as you live a good life, the label isn't particularly useful to making that life better.
Well, as I said I think the main reason to reveal it is if people need accommodations from their workplace.
I do not have any particular reason to reveal my 'unusualness' once I have properly masked because, it simply doesn't help me. But I do think the way neurotypicals think you need to be able to have a term to explain it to them. Even if it is a "maybe" term. The thing is with NT's is if they mostly have had no reason in life to explore the mental health topic, they simply don't have any frame of reference if you need to explain it to them for some reason. And if someone is close to an NT they will need to explain it at some point.
And then there are some ND's that want a name for what it is just because that's how they are.
This is why it might be needed to bring in a term to help describe it to them. Once an NT has processed 'This person has this condition' it is real to them but 'This person experiences this symptom' can't be processed. When my medical situation was very bad and I showed pretty clear schizoid symptoms, explaining this to family really made them a lot happier. They need to bridge the gap between the NT behaviours people are meant to show and what they perceive. Now the physical medical situation has changed and so have my behaviours (my anxiety around others simply stopped existing!) which leads me a bit out of the sticks in terms of finding ways to explain these things if they come up.
Oh Athena, you can’t possibly be a psychopath if you feel so strongly about this! /s
Jokes aside, internet randos who think they know better are annoying but the medical gaslighting cases like the one you mentioned can be outright dangerous, or even lethal, unfortunately...
https://www.salvilaw.com/blog/how-medical-gaslighting-can-lead-to-malpractice/
Yeah.. my husband told me the story about his colleague's wife who went to the doctor about chest pain and he said it was anxiety. She went home but came back hours later with burning fever, it turns out it was bacterial infection in the heart.
She is alive but didn't get a full recovery.
I think a doctor should never assume it's psychological unless the patient is infamous for doing that. Order some exams and see what you get.
Yes, I agree
this was really helpful. i didn't realize so many of the judgments that i have gotten from people even had a source like this; for the longest time i just thought i was crazy. more recently, i have come to believe they are actually untrue and i don't understand their reasoning because i'm not like that. ty for the insight.
also, the surgery with the butter knife article - did you come up with that or is this actually something that exists? lmao💀
No, it doesn't exist... at least I hope that it isn't.
I think Athena showed her lack of education though in not knowing that the reason towers collapse is that there are not enough bunnies in the foundation.
HA!
I frequent a social media platform where I see many people who call someone a psychopath. I don’t know if they are just saying it to feel better or if they knew what psychopathy is they’d actually put the correct diagnosis to who they’re speaking of. I engaged in suggesting that perhaps they meant sociopath and explained what the difference between the two were.
No one challenged my synopsis 😳
I gathered that perhaps they thought I was a psychopath & freaked out or they actually agreed as they finally wrapped their head around it. Don’t know.
I’m entertained by watching politics and can usually call out bs when I see it & people seem to get my point when I point out the logical obvious in people. My therapist says “Doesn’t that drive you nuts watching it” ? I told her no. I almost view them as strange characters almost soap opera like because one side is so extreme & the other side is usually sound reasoning with facts to back their claims. When everyone was convinced that Trump or Putin had to be psychopaths because of they’re behavior I’d comment these are two power hungry people that enjoy watching sadistic behavior, like to brag & be seen as big and powerful. Ok so they’ve actually seen Narcissism and from they’re backgrounds they’re more than likely are on the sociopathic spectrum. They both had a shitty childhoods and they are hyper aware about what they look like because life as they know is all about them.
I saw this drama growing up.
Why do they argue or challenge you is up for debate but I have no idea why someone would actually want to be a psychopath. I perceive it as being a huge challenge, exhausting dealing with people and painfully boring. I’m never bored as I have too much to keep me occupied.
But I did get a small faux taste of what it might be like after having a concussion. I was told I had a personality change, that I talked slower and there was a lack of enjoyment in my eyes. But logically I knew I couldn’t retrieve words to have a conversation and apparently I told my doctor that I didn’t give a rats ass about anything or anyone and I was bored. It was bizarre to not have a single thought or idea in my head. Before my mind was creative & full of ideas.
As time passed I did get my full emotional skill set back but my memory was full of gaps. I didn’t talk much as my fluidity of thought was not there. I’d forget what happened the day before and not remember talking or seeing people when they’d remind me.
I thought shit now I know what getting your bell rung really means.
2.5 years later I found I have no memory of the accident & still have memory issues. My doctor told me that I have permanent vestibular brain damage and I will have memory issues in the future. Ok I get that. Today I can only describe as if I were a computer and that perhaps someone wiped out data randomly & continues to. it’s not fun.
I’d like to know how you remember something or code it to remember something important. I had a strong interest prior to the concussion in going back to school to learn nuclear medicine as I find it interesting. However at this time I don’t know how to retain the knowledge to pass the courses and get a degree.
Any advice or system practices that you could suggest would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
Good read btw👍🏻
I don't think that I would have very useful tips for remembering things because I simply tell myself that something is important and therefore I need to remember it.
However, I did ask someone that I know that had a significant head injury and what he did to help himself. He says that he remember dates by associating them with other significant dates that are in the part of his memory that wasn't affected. He also suggested this:
https://www.puritan.com/mental-focus-119/neuro-ps-300-mg-phosphatidylserine-017630
He says that it significantly helps with brain fog and memory issues. Hopefully those two things help.
Wonderful article for which I must thank you, Athena. Now I wonder if I am a psychopath or just leaning in. I have some of the measurements that fit, like tiny amygdala and undersized preoptic frontal cortex, but am I? I thought I am, but now not so certain. Ah well, the idea that I lack knowledge is one of the most delighting things that can happen to me, inspiring more research or the design of research projects, so if I have a lot of arrogance, it hides itself better than I can detect.
I wish I could offer insight into what was discussed rather than just a personal reaction, but that may take some contemplation. I remain your attuned follower.
There are endless resources on line for autistic people seeking to understand themselves but psychopathy is still at an apparently earlier stage of not actually understanding the condition. Not being able to separate it from the mythology.
Even if you aren't, personal observations of your own situation can be very interesting.
The comment left by this 16 years old girl is off putting. I doubt if all of it is really true. I am not sure what's wrong with her, but definitely it is not psychopathy. Even those whom are ill informed about it can see through it. On the other hand, I can see why she might believe herself to be a psychopath who has to much time on her. There was a brief study done on teenagers who witnessed the pandemic and they deduced that the average teenager at that time, exhibited "psychopathic" and narcisstic traits than teenagers who grew up in normal stable times. I think it doesn't take much to believe it (psychopathy as the vast majority believes what it is) do you see those trends on tiktok? The content it had? Kids inflicting emotional or physical pain just for the views and likes or putting themsleevs in situations that make them lose respect. What I am saying is that -which is related to how the brain is not formed yet- unsupervised teenagers like this child who see people as puppets or see nothing but themselves, will outgrew it. Albeit, in different ways.
Indeed, I doubt it as well. They seemed to try to be hitting all the myths in the most extreme way they could imagine without being absolutely ridiculous. Then the notion that they might be seen as an edgelord seemed out of the blue as well.
I skipped it on first reading but went back just now.
"I feel nothing for them. I fantasise a lot only with particular people I find attractive, but get bored quickly once I see their “humanity” and “get inside of them” when I was younger I developed a foolish relationship which was more like an internet relationship."
Idealisation and devaluation? I think borderline calls it something else.
"I had sexual expierience with my grandpa, not a intercourse, when I was seven, from there I got into sexual things and materials."
Assuming this person can experience trauma then this is trauma. We don't know any more of what her family dynamic is like but we don't know if she brought this up with her parents and they ignored her as sometimes happens. If she is living with parents that ignored this and she does not feel safe around them then she will not show them her vulnerability; because she is surrounded by predators.
The statistics on child sexual abuse are far higher than one would expect. A child of a single mother is thirty times more likely to be raped and single mothers have grown massively since the advent of the welfare state. I believe, every part of that sentence, is explicitly by design.
You have good points.
I refuse to believe that this child is saying the full truth. For a 16 years old, she is very articulate. I also refuse to believe that her parents are not involved. She mentioned them few times, when they scolded her about harming animals.
I am not saying abuse in children is non existent, it is, but this girl is not traumatized by her questionable relationship with her grandfather. When you have any type of trauma, the last thing you talk about, is the exact cause of your misery (whether you realize it, or not)
So this is a person who has likely consumed questionable material, either documentaries , books or even Netflix shows, and, in respect to what happened to those individuals in those documentaries, she found it amusing to apply those scenarios and scenes in her fantasy world.
OK, so here is the statistics; last time I saw it it was 1 in 5 boys. Feminism been up to it's usual things I suspect there:
About 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 13 boys in the United States experience child sexual abuse. https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/childsexualabuse/fastfact.html
I do not feel comfortable making further, even very light, theorising as to the specific individual. I would say that of those I have known with abuse in their pasts (with which significantly negative behaviour was evident) they did indeed hide their situations. But there are always exceptions to a general rule.
My thoughts are that, to my thinking, the general toxicity in the society would be due to things like this, more than to Tik tok.
I hear you.
I didn't say that tiktok is culprit as to why there is a general toxicity in our societies.
It is one piece of the puzzle, including the pandemic lockdown, which is why I mentioned tiktok in the first place.
Tiktok is the Number.1 App that been officially banned in many countries including many states, due it's negative nature. When did you hear that people got arrested for promoting sex trafficking on tiktok?
The producers in Sillicon Valley, would be happy to tell you that their algorithms are designed to cause controversy, to psychologically manipulate you, decrease your attention span, give instant false gratification. All this is a recipe of disaster to a developing brain.
Love this! ❤️🔥🙌🏼
Yet again another great showing of your understanding in the depth of the human mind... :o Never commented before but I had some questions I wanted to ask, though I have nothing I could trade in exchange. Hilariously this is quite similar to someone saying "I'll pay you in exposure" to an artist, but I'll try regardless. :P This story just made me realize how badly I need to ask these questions in the first place.
Though I am no psychopath myself, and definitely do not claim to know much about their inner workings, I've never innately seen them as Bad People, and you definitely show how they're just as human as anyone else! Just a little different! I've been writing a story where one of the main characters IS a psychopath, same as his father, and your blog has been helping a lot in getting an understanding of all the intricacies of that and how to write him effectively. (While, of course, still doing my best to make him lovable as to dispel the myths of psychopaths. This mostly goes into making a very snarky and low-patience for other people personality that is evidently Very Funny to outside observers with their comments.)
BUT, it's been hard to fill in some gaps, (and I've DEFINITELY slipped up in ways I regret in a story that's being written With a Second Person (as in I can't really Go Back and edit it) when it comes to Fear and Grief.) and I'd really love to try and make sure I'm portraying him as Accurately as possible! So, if you'd give me the time of day to answer these questions, I'll cut to the chase. And, if it'd be easier for you, you can absolutely point me to any previous articles you've made that I can read up on to answer any of my questions, just to save you the time typing. I have no issue with that as I honestly haven't been reading very long, I've only gone through maybe 10 or so posts, ALL of which are beautifully written.
1. Love. You have a partner, and while I'm *told* Psychopaths are incapable of Feeling love, I'm alsoo told they can still desire to Be Loved, and that's definitely an interesting one. But to have a partner to be loved by you'd have to Want to be around the person in the first place, so essentially, what made you Want to stick around them? What do you get out of it? And, if they died, how would you take that?
2. While you are incapable of feeling Fear or the threat of your life, what about Anxiety or Dread? Particularly about things you didn't want to do? Are you able to identify with the feeling of your stomach twisting in knots, or is that too linked emotionally to be felt by even a lower spectrum Psychopath such as yourself? Sort of linked, how would a psychopath react to something such as Sexual Assault or unwanted Sexual Acts in general?
3. I've run myself into a hole where at the start of the story I wrote that his father desired to burn the world due to the grief caused by losing his wife, which can't happen because no grief, so this was easily substituted with just this... Hole left when her overwhelming love as a person was stripped from him so suddenly. (The want to Be Loved, fulfilled to such a degree that when it was gone, it was Crushing; how to function without that aid having been forgotten.) But I doooon't think I'm in the right place for this...? I just get the general sense I'm doing Everything wrong, and was hoping you might have an idea of some sort of alternative. I just know everything got Bad for that family when she died, and I Have to find a reasoning for that because I Cannot fully retcon it this far in.
Once again, thank you for just putting in the time to read such an overwhelmingly large comment! And I'm sorry I had to write so much! As well, I'd be very grateful for your input, even if I cannot give much transactionally. I know it is asking much from someone wired like you are, and that can be daunting. Have a lovely day!
"Love. You have a partner, and while I'm *told* Psychopaths are incapable of Feeling love, I'm also told they can still desire to Be Loved, and that's definitely an interesting one. But to have a partner to be loved by you'd have to Want to be around the person in the first place, so essentially, what made you Want to stick around them? What do you get out of it? And, if they died, how would you take that?"
Psychopaths do not crave or desire love. We literally have no concept of what it is, cannot feel envy, loneliness, or any of the other things that neurotypicals do feel that makes them "want love". I have a number of posts addressing love and psychopathy.
We do not feel anxiety or dread. None of what you write there is relatable to a psychopath.
I've run myself into a hole where at the start of the story I wrote that his father desired to burn the world due to the grief caused by losing his wife, which can't happen because no grief, so this was easily substituted with just this... Hole left when her overwhelming love as a person was stripped from him so suddenly. (The want to Be Loved, fulfilled to such a degree that when it was gone, it was Crushing; how to function without that aid having been forgotten.) But I doooon't think I'm in the right place for this...? I just get the general sense I'm doing Everything wrong, and was hoping you might have an idea of some sort of alternative. I just know everything got Bad for that family when she died, and I Have to find a reasoning for that because I Cannot fully retcon it this far in"
This paragraph is why I do not help neurotypicals write about psychopathy. You are approaching it from such an incorrect perspective your characters are entirely removed from how psychopathy functions. I specifically wrote about this here:
https://www.quora.com/I-m-trying-to-create-a-character-who-is-a-psychopath-with-a-200-IQ-and-ADHD-How-would-I-make-his-character-accurate/answer/Athena-Walker
Neurotypicals have already made this arena a total mess, so it would be best to leave it be in my estimation.
Aye, fair enough.
I definitely understood that I had completely approached it from the Wrooong angle at the *Start,* but that was before I had begun my research. Though you're most likely correct that I will never understand properly.
My apologies, I guess? It is difficult to tell if that's just how you talk, or if you are being passive aggressive with me for trying to learn. Either way, my bad.